Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive :: View topic - Hutchinson Mall in Hutchinson, MN

mzk wrote:

The signs are posted at each entrance and say “The Owner and Operator of Hutchinson Mall Bans Guns in these Premises.”

DrSIG226 wrote:

And this brings to light another question - MOA has its own PD. Are they authorized agents of the mall? Hypothetically, if one approached and asked you to vacate the premises, do they have actionable authority granted by the mall owners?

Andrew Rothman wrote:

The Mall of America has security officers -- private employees with uniforms.

A number of Bloomington Police officers each shift are assigned to the Mall.

Either could ask you to leave. And you;d have to for either. Verbal notification is sufficient under the 2005 law, invalid sign or not.

SethB wrote:

But if the landlord can't require you not to carry, then why does an oral request carry more weight than a sign? What if you're an invitee of a tenant (e.g. Joel doing a signing at Barnes and Noble)?

Andrew Rothman wrote:

Except that the mall can ask you to leave for any or no reason.

KimberMan wrote:

Andrew Rothman wrote:

Except that the mall can ask you to leave for any or no reason.

No, they cannot. If their reason is your lawful carrying of a firearm, they MUST comply with 624.714, subdivision 17. See paragraph (f) thereof.

durbin6 wrote:

I was really pissed when they put up the new signs with new bogus wording, it still doesn't comply because as landlord they can't post the commons or the entrances, only their tennants can post their businesses. To try to make my point on this subject with the Hutch Mall manager and owner I decided to carry open in the mall to see what reaction I would get. (I have already had several conversations with the Hutch PD chief about the improperly posted signs and he has sent the Sergeant to talk to them twice about it so I wasn't too worried about what the cops would do if they showed up). Unfortunately I did not get any response or reaction from anybody at the mall. I am going to continue this until I get a reaction, if it needs to go to court to get resolved I don't mind being the guinea pig, at least then maybe then we will be able to put this issue to rest.

JD

SethB wrote:

Andrew Rothman wrote:

A random person doesn't get to require you to leave, it has to be an agent of the owner (operator), right? So that leaves out the Bloomington Police. (Of course, disobeying them is still a very bad idea.)

But if the landlord can't require you not to carry, then why does an oral request carry more weight than a sign? What if you're an invitee of a tenant (e.g. Joel doing a signing at Barnes and Noble)?

Author:	stealthcarry [ Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:
Stopped in here today. It is posted. As is my usual practice, i ignored the sign and strolled on in. This place is a tomb! How the tenants manage to stay in business is a mystery. Needless to say, i spent nada. However, i did convey my sentiments vis a vis the mall signage to several store managers.

Author:	kimberman [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:
mzk wrote: The signs are posted at each entrance and say “The Owner and Operator of Hutchinson Mall Bans Guns in these Premises.” It's a non-compliant sign. Just ignore it. I know how to make it compliant but I'm not going to tell them. I hope none of you "show off" your legal talent by telling them how to do it right. Because they will.

Author:	DrSIG226 [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Mall of America
Ok - just visited MOA today...entered through Nordstroms (not posted) and noticed the big signs when entering the MOA commons. Based on my understanding of the Landlord/Tenant portion of the MCPA, these signs are non-compliant. Has anyone sent a letter similar to the one in the this thread's initial post to the owners of the mall? If so, what was the response. And this brings to light another question - MOA has its own PD. Are they authorized agents of the mall? Hypothetically, if one approached and asked you to vacate the premises, do they have actionable authority granted by the mall owners?

Author:	Andrew Rothman [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Mall of America
DrSIG226 wrote: And this brings to light another question - MOA has its own PD. Are they authorized agents of the mall? Hypothetically, if one approached and asked you to vacate the premises, do they have actionable authority granted by the mall owners? The Mall of America has security officers -- private employees with uniforms. A number of Bloomington Police officers each shift are assigned to the Mall. Either could ask you to leave. And you;d have to for either. Verbal notification is sufficient under the 2005 law, invalid sign or not.

Author:	SethB [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Mall of America
Andrew Rothman wrote: The Mall of America has security officers -- private employees with uniforms. A number of Bloomington Police officers each shift are assigned to the Mall. Either could ask you to leave. And you;d have to for either. Verbal notification is sufficient under the 2005 law, invalid sign or not. A random person doesn't get to require you to leave, it has to be an agent of the owner (operator), right? So that leaves out the Bloomington Police. (Of course, disobeying them is still a very bad idea.) But if the landlord can't require you not to carry, then why does an oral request carry more weight than a sign? What if you're an invitee of a tenant (e.g. Joel doing a signing at Barnes and Noble)?

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Author:	DrSIG226 [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Mall of America
SethB wrote: But if the landlord can't require you not to carry, then why does an oral request carry more weight than a sign? What if you're an invitee of a tenant (e.g. Joel doing a signing at Barnes and Noble)? This is what I was getting at...as a landlord, they cannot prevent their guests or tenants from carrying - so what can the uniformed guards or the police do? I think Joel mentioned that it would be reasonable for them to excercise limitations on Mall offices and such, but in I'm doing my mall walking exercises around the prominades... btw - agreed on not starting things up with the police.

Author:	Andrew Rothman [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:
Whoops. You're right, of course. Except that the mall can ask you to leave for any or no reason. And, of course, disobeying cops, whether they are right or wrong, is rarely a good idea.

Author:	kimberman [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:
Andrew Rothman wrote: Except that the mall can ask you to leave for any or no reason. No, they cannot. If their reason is your lawful carrying of a firearm, they MUST comply with 624.714, subdivision 17. See paragraph (f) thereof.

Author:	Andrew Rothman [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:59 pm ]
Post subject:
KimberMan wrote: Andrew Rothman wrote: Except that the mall can ask you to leave for any or no reason. No, they cannot. If their reason is your lawful carrying of a firearm, they MUST comply with 624.714, subdivision 17. See paragraph (f) thereof. Well, sure. But when the goons try to remove you and you don't go, standing on your rights, they'll have you removed for "making a scene" or "disturbing the peace."

Author:	durbin6 [ Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:04 am ]
Post subject:	Carried open in Huth Mall
I was really pissed when they put up the new signs with new bogus wording, it still doesn't comply because as landlord they can't post the commons or the entrances, only their tennants can post their businesses. To try to make my point on this subject with the Hutch Mall manager and owner I decided to carry open in the mall to see what reaction I would get. (I have already had several conversations with the Hutch PD chief about the improperly posted signs and he has sent the Sergeant to talk to them twice about it so I wasn't too worried about what the cops would do if they showed up). Unfortunately I did not get any response or reaction from anybody at the mall. I am going to continue this until I get a reaction, if it needs to go to court to get resolved I don't mind being the guinea pig, at least then maybe then we will be able to put this issue to rest. JD

Author:	simian12 [ Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:
Go get em Durbin! I would be prepared however with another person videotaping the event. When things get to "he said she said", they rarely match the actual events that occured. Mike

Author:	mzk [ Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:
Wow, there has been a lot of action on this board lately with the Hennepin County Library incident and now this. Durbin, it is great that you have been in communication with the Hutchinson PD regarding this issue. It is only a matter of time before someone calls 911 claiming that there is a “man with a gun.” It would be nice if we could get this whole mall issue resolved once and for all.

Author:	joelr [ Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Carried open in Huth Mall
durbin6 wrote: I was really pissed when they put up the new signs with new bogus wording, it still doesn't comply because as landlord they can't post the commons or the entrances, only their tennants can post their businesses. To try to make my point on this subject with the Hutch Mall manager and owner I decided to carry open in the mall to see what reaction I would get. (I have already had several conversations with the Hutch PD chief about the improperly posted signs and he has sent the Sergeant to talk to them twice about it so I wasn't too worried about what the cops would do if they showed up). Unfortunately I did not get any response or reaction from anybody at the mall. I am going to continue this until I get a reaction, if it needs to go to court to get resolved I don't mind being the guinea pig, at least then maybe then we will be able to put this issue to rest. JD This could be tricky. I think -- and it's just me noodling on it -- that you need for them both to try to enforce the signs, to be stupid enough to admit that they were doing that, even after consulting with their lawyer. That said, since you apparently have a good working relationship with the local PD chief, it's unlikely to get real ugly.

Author:	KonaSeven [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:
Durbin6, have you made any headway with the mall owners? I see the signs are still up. IIRC, I read that you had gotten an interpretation from Jeff Luther of the MNBCA, that the mall owners were, in fact, landlords and could not post. Thanks

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Author:	Red XIII [ Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Mall of America
SethB wrote: Andrew Rothman wrote: The Mall of America has security officers -- private employees with uniforms. A number of Bloomington Police officers each shift are assigned to the Mall. Either could ask you to leave. And you;d have to for either. Verbal notification is sufficient under the 2005 law, invalid sign or not. A random person doesn't get to require you to leave, it has to be an agent of the owner (operator), right? So that leaves out the Bloomington Police. (Of course, disobeying them is still a very bad idea.) But if the landlord can't require you not to carry, then why does an oral request carry more weight than a sign? What if you're an invitee of a tenant (e.g. Joel doing a signing at Barnes and Noble)? Aren't the officers there on a detail for the mall? Does the mall pay the P.D. to have them there (similar to but not necessarily like a moonlighting job, but that's city approved)? If so, they'd be agents of the mall. And arguing with police regarding a gun could get ugly (IMHO), even if you're within your legal rights. I'd say if they ask, leave, and take it up with them another time/place/way. Red