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Open Carry, help or hurt?
http://www.twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=411		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  bab [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Open Carry, help or hurt?
As promised (threatened :wink: ) I thought I'd start a thread about the practice of open carry, and what affects it might have on permit holders.

Broadly stated I think the practice can drive non-permit holders in two different directions, either they get even more frightened than they already are, or they get over it/used to it. I'd hope for the latter, but fear the former is more likely. More precisely... I'd fear the number of people driven to the former, multiplied by the amount of grief they'd be inspired to generate for us (yes it can get much worse than it is now) would out weigh the number of people who'd get over it multiplied by their resulting actions (hard to imagine a big "I got over it" rally at the capitol).

It is my guess that open carry would be more productively received after a period of several years of concealed carry, which will build the base of stats to show the faint of heart that it won't turn your average Minnesotan into a killer :roll:

So anyway... what are your theories, experiences, thoughts on the matter?
Author:  JDR [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ditto :!:


I am in absolute 100% agreement with you. :!:
Author:  BB Guns [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
BAB......

Well said!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D

Why should we rock the boat?? Things are going good for us now. Lots of work went into the new law. and most of us are happy with it. So, lets try to keep it around for a few years.
Author:  gunflint [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think that there's merit on both sides. However I won't open carry. It's not up to me to try to re-train the sheeple into accepting firearms. I got my permit and I carry for one reason and one reason only and that's to defend myself or loved ones. I couldn't care less if the antis accept the defensive use of guns or not.
Author:  Pakrat [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Open Carry, help or hurt?
bab wrote:
It is my guess that open carry would be more productively received after a period of several years of concealed carry

You have a very good point here.

Anti: "You have a gun?"
CCW: "Yea, I've been carrying one for 3 years. Where have you been?"
Author:  Andrew Rothman [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I couldn't care less if the antis accept the defensive use of guns or not.


You should. They vote.

I've invited or taken ten folks to the range who would not otherwise have ever touched a gun. (They are Rob, David, David, Joe, G.R., Paul, Brett, Jean, Mark and Kamala) Five will probably end up getting carry permits. The rest certainly aren't as "anti" as they were before we went.

How did this happen? I was open. No, I didn't carry openly, but I was open about the fact that I was a shooter.

I'm a nice guy, and a gentle one. I haven't thrown a punch since fifth grade. I'm a responsible member of society, a good husband, a good father, a good employee and a good citizen.

People I know, when they find out that I shoot guns, either have to change their opinion of me, or of gun owners. Mostly they change their opinion of gun owners. :)

Open carry isn't the only way, and may not even be the best way, but complete anonymity isn't the answer either. People are shocked to find out that 30,000 Minnesotans have carry permits, because most have never seen one carry.

So if you choose not to open carry, at least consider opening up a little to those around you. Every person we bring around is another who may not vote for the Schumers and Feinsteins.
Author:  JDR [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Andrew Rothman wrote:
....I'm a nice guy, and a gentle one. I haven't thrown a punch since fifth grade. I'm a responsible member of society, a good husband, a good father, a good employee and a good citizen....


Then why are you wearing a mask? :lol:

Or, is it that you have two black eyes? :wink:
Author:  Moby Clarke [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:33 pm ]
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So your premise is that by open carrying I am going to set off an otherwise non-activist person to suddenly go crazy trying to rescind the MPPA? But if I carry concealed, they will not see my gun and because they will not see my gun they will further fail to read about the thousands of people who do have permits: therefore, they will go about their lives and continue on being a non-activist.

Please correct me if I have missed something or gotten it wrong.

Sorry, but this is the same thinking that the anti's try to use when CCW is proposed: the gun is the problem. That is something I will never understand. I have been carrying openly and have had ONE kind of, sort of, maybe a not so positive experience. 1 out of about 500 chances is pretty remarkable if I go by your theory.

I guess I need to have someone explain it to me again slowly because I just do not get the overreaction.
Author:  gunflint [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:58 am ]
Post subject: 
Like I said earlier, both sides have merit. But the only possitive thing I've read on the open carry side is that it gets the non or anti-gun folks used to guns. I stand by my statement that It's not my responsbility to train the antis.

Most, not all, antis have several other issues besides guns that I disagree with them with and I've reached the point in my life where I just don't care to get into political discussions with every anti I run across. Lifes getting to be to short. The fact that you have possibly converted some non-gun people is highly commendable. However lets keep in mind that there may be some financial incentive involved. I'm not being synical , I'm all for financial incentive.

The main reason that I wouldn't open carry has nothing to do with the antis anyway. By carrying open I have have givin up any possible advantage to a would be bad guy. There are no surprises for the bad guy and the only thing that he can do is neutralize me first because I'm his biggest threat. Of course the flip side to my argument is that by displaying a weapon openly you will deter bad guys from bothering you in the first place. I can't argue against that, I'm sure that it does. However I think that it could invite some bad things also. Either way, be it antis, or bad guys by carrying openly you become the center of attention. As far as either group is concerned, that's not my goal.
Author:  Srigs [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:16 am ]
Post subject: 
Andrew Rothman wrote:
Quote:
I couldn't care less if the antis accept the defensive use of guns or not.


You should. They vote.

I've invited or taken ten folks to the range who would not otherwise have ever touched a gun. (They are Rob, David, David, Joe, G.R., Paul, Brett, Jean, Mark and Kamala) Five will probably end up getting carry permits. The rest certainly aren't as "anti" as they were before we went.

How did this happen? I was open. No, I didn't carry openly, but I was open about the fact that I was a shooter.

I'm a nice guy, and a gentle one. I haven't thrown a punch since fifth grade. I'm a responsible member of society, a good husband, a good father, a good employee and a good citizen.

People I know, when they find out that I shoot guns, either have to change their opinion of me, or of gun owners. Mostly they change their opinion of gun owners. :)

Open carry isn't the only way, and may not even be the best way, but complete anonymity isn't the answer either. People are shocked to find out that 30,000 Minnesotans have carry permits, because most have never seen one carry.

So if you choose not to open carry, at least consider opening up a little to those around you. Every person we bring around is another who may not vote for the Schumers and Feinsteins.


This can and does work!

I'm turning my non comfortable wife from "you don't need a gun" to her shooting a 10/22 and 22 handgun with me at the cabin to shooting with her father for the first ever this Thursday at the cabin. I think my father in law will get a permit early next year.

With in a year hopefully she will be open to a carry permit.

This would be a great way to add people to the way we think about guns and carry.
Author:  joelr [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:51 am ]
Post subject: 
Well, as I've said before, I think that it's possible that careful, judicious open carry can move toward more acceptance -- and adoption -- of carry permits. But I think it also can irritate and frighten folks, without generating enough useful acceptance to make it worthwhile.

That said, that's my opinion as, well, a guy.

As the Administrator, though, my opinion is this: open and polite discussions of the issues from all perspectives (particularly including those with which I disagree) is not only permitted on the Forum, but encouraged.
Author:  bab [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:07 am ]
Post subject: 
[quote="
Please correct me if I have missed something or gotten it wrong.
Moby Clarke"]

Certainly

-So your premise is that by open carrying I am going to set off an otherwise non-activist person to suddenly go crazy trying to rescind the MPPA?

No. That's your exagerated restatement of what I said. What I believe is that there are many people who are afraid of guns, but who don't think much about them, and therefore don't do much against them, until they see one in the flesh, on your hip, in front of them at the line in the grocery store. Such an incident could well be the last straw for the them to start aggitating for repeal.

-But if I carry concealed, they will not see my gun and because they will not see my gun they will further fail to read about the thousands of people who do have permits: therefore, they will go about their lives and continue on being a non-activist.

Having read in the paper 7 months ago that ~30,000 people have permits is quite a different experience for someone afraid of guns than seeing an actual gun 3 feet away. I never said anti's were logical or rational, just that they can be driven to act by emotional means. So why drive them.

Having said that, I agree that some exposure can be a good thing, and can lead to discussions and conversions. I think those making the point of being more open have it right. I have had some positive conversations myself when divulging my status... "really! you have a permit? wow I'd have never guessed it. I thought only nuts got those...hmmm maybe I should think about getting one". However I didn't initiate such discussions with open carry. I don't think it's impossible to do so, just more difficult, and with a much bigger risk of making matters worse rather than better.

Finally, you mention you've had very few negative encounters vs. many non-negative. I'm guessing it is more accurate to say you've had many encounters with unknown outcomes. When someone sees you carrying, gives a faint smile and slowly walks away, that isn't necessarilly a positive encounter. For all we know that person was afraid of your gun, but also afraid to say anything. They could have headed home to tell their family and friends about the gun nut they saw at the store. I could certainly be wrong about this, but don't assume you are right either. In cases like I've described we literally don't know if open carry helped or hurt.
Author:  mobocracy [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:41 am ]
Post subject: 
My sense is that among people unfamiliar to firearms, carrying a handgun is inherently provocative. I also think that provoking people doesn't always advance a cause.

The law that was passed allows us to carry a firearm. It doesn't require that the public at large like guns or even carry, and I think getting in people's faces about the issue only forces them to push back in protest.

I agree that their fear/paranoia isn't justified, but it's also real and can be turned against us.

Does wearing a T-shirt that reads "FUC_ YOU" (uncensored, of course) advance the cause of free speech?
Author:  BB Guns [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:40 am ]
Post subject: 
:D
Author:  mostlylawabidingcitizen [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:01 am ]
Post subject: 
I open carry when driving. Simplifies a rather complex draw to begin with. If I stop for gas or a Coke, some times I cover, some times I don't. Since I'm "respectable" looking no one has ever asked except a nephew who asked "why do you carry a gun?" I in turn asked if they have a smoke alarm in the house? "yes" well have you ever had a fire in the house? "no" do you have locks on the door? "Yes" Has anyone ever broken in? "no" Well you have prepared for a fire and people breaking in, why doesn't your dad prepare to protect you??? :lol:

His dad and my other brother-in-law are now discussing getting a permit.

Most people never even notice, I was out working on some fences a couple years ago, when the neighbor walked up to talk. It took 20 minutes before he noticed I was carrying. The wife said, I'm sure you have guns, and he said "some people can't own guns... :P The wife asked me about it later... I had to explain he was kidding.

Mostly-
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