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So what if I use my firearm in a posted location?
http://www.twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5569		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  sheepdog [ Thu May 24, 2007 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  So what if I use my firearm in a posted location?
I find myself constantly running scenarios through my head in an attempt to have at least some level of preparedness/awareness in situations where the use of a firearm is necessary.

So, let's just say I'm in a posted liquor store (in St. Anthony? :x ) and suddenly find myself cornered and in immediate fear of my life with no other option but to take out the person that I believe is about to kill me. What are the legal ramifications of using a firearm in a "no guns allowed" establishment? Do I suddenly become the bad guy simply because of a stupid sign?
Author:  Selurcspi [ Thu May 24, 2007 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So what if I use my firearm in a posted location?
sheepdog wrote:
I find myself constantly running scenarios through my head in an attempt to have at least some level of preparedness/awareness in situations where the use of a firearm is necessary.

So, let's just say I'm in a posted liquor store (in St. Anthony? :x ) and suddenly find myself cornered and in immediate fear of my life with no other option but to take out the person that I believe is about to kill me. What are the legal ramifications of using a firearm in a "no guns allowed" establishment? Do I suddenly become the bad guy simply because of a stupid sign?


Have you received a demand for compliance with the establishments ban in this scenario?
If not, you cannot be assesed the $25 fine. You can always wait outside for the LEOs to arrive, just don't leave if you have defended yourself.

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Author:  joelr [ Thu May 24, 2007 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So what if I use my firearm in a posted location?
sheepdog wrote:
I find myself constantly running scenarios through my head in an attempt to have at least some level of preparedness/awareness in situations where the use of a firearm is necessary.

So, let's just say I'm in a posted liquor store (in St. Anthony? :x ) and suddenly find myself cornered and in immediate fear of my life with no other option but to take out the person that I believe is about to kill me. What are the legal ramifications of using a firearm in a "no guns allowed" establishment? Do I suddenly become the bad guy simply because of a stupid sign?
Nah. There's not -- and vanishingly unlikely to be -- any case law on it, and IANAL, but, well, nah.
Author:  Red XIII [ Thu May 24, 2007 12:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
One thing I think (and IANAL), is that it may give civil suits against you an edge...

On another tangent, not sure if that would change the law/peoples' minds for better or worse. Places may take signs down, or they could change the law to make the signs legal in and of themselves.

Although if it's me or them...I don't care where I am, it's me.

Red
Author:  sheepdog [ Thu May 24, 2007 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: So what if I use my firearm in a posted location?
joelr wrote:
Nah. There's not -- and vanishingly unlikely to be -- any case law on it, and IANAL, but, well, nah.


Good to know. Still makes me beg the question: What's the point of those signs? I mean, really?

I found it very interesting to learn during my class that entering a posted establishment while carrying does not make you an instant felon as some, maybe most, people might believe at first. They just mean that if you ARE spotted carrying, they can ask you to comply and if you don't, LEO's come and slap you on the wrist and it doesn't even result in forfeiture of your firearm. So I pretty much ignore those signs...

With that said, what are posted shop owners really trying to accomplish? A political statement? Many may have the false belief that all people, sheep and wolves alike, will dutifully obey. Obviously that's not the case. So really, what's the point?

And I think you're right Red - in this particular scenario, prosecution might have an edge in the event of a civil trial. :x
Author:  Dick Unger [ Thu May 24, 2007 2:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
If you have the right to defend yourself, you have the right to defend yourself regardless of the sign. If not you are in trouble for using your gun against somebody. The signs won't matter to anybody in the case of an actual use of a gun.

I think we have signs because some legislators wanted the law to give property owners the right to put up signs. Sort of a testiment to illogical thinking, because the signs don't really have any effect on anybody who would misbehave with a gun.

The signs apparently do unsettle customers who sometimes think there must be a gun problem on the premises and that management believes a sign will help solve it. And they are apparently a reminder to folks who have not gotten a carry permit to sign up to get one. Neither of these reasons are likely to have been an important motivation for the people who bought the signs, I think.

Originally some signs were quickly put up by Co-ops and other businesses who support the old DFL programs for gun control. I think there was an email to DFL CEO's. And some places put up signs because other businesses did so. The sign companies sent out advertising to businesses recommending, well, buying signs.

Most posters have figured things out and removed the signs from their premises. But not all.
Author:  Andrew Rothman [ Thu May 24, 2007 3:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
One printer offered two free signs to any business that would post.
Author:  A Brit in MN [ Thu May 24, 2007 4:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
It's always fun explaining to Employees what the law is, and the reality of what BAD people think of signs. In most cases, the response is priceless. That little bubble of safety they thought there boss had created............GONE.......................... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: Makes them look at there boss in a whole new light :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Author:  Srigs [ Thu May 24, 2007 5:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
Good question. Like everyone said, no real issue except for shock when you protect yourself instead of hiding under a chair! :twisted:
Author:  Tick Slayer [ Thu May 24, 2007 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: So what if I use my firearm in a posted location?
sheepdog wrote:
<snip>What's the point of those signs? I mean, really?

I found it very interesting to learn during my class that entering a posted establishment while carrying does not make you an instant felon as some, maybe most, people might believe at first.<snip>

With that said, what are posted shop owners really trying to accomplish? <snip>


Well, human nature being what it is, and the number of posting entities being what it is, I think it's safe to say there are a number of reasons. I suspect many people choose to post because they expect others to honor the signs either out of traditional Minnesotan manners or ignorance of the law. Probably a fair number who post think a posting has the force of law.
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