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 Open Carry and the Little "CCW Badge" 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:44 pm 
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plblark wrote:


again, OC alone would accomplish your goals.
12smile wrote:
I'd wear six badges and one on my forehead if I could avoid that.


You're skipping a step: how the badge protects you in some way that the gun does not.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:46 pm 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
plblark wrote:


again, OC alone would accomplish your goals.
12smile wrote:
I'd wear six badges and one on my forehead if I could avoid that.


You're skipping a step: how the badge protects you in some way that the gun does not.
As a cleverer guy than I pointed out, you can buy lots of them, and put them in a vest to protect you against bullets -- you know: DragnetSkin.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:48 pm 
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Quote:
The way I read it, he WAS asking this board for their opinions and explanations

See...that's the trouble with e-mail and texting. Sometimes the meaning of the words can be up to the present mood of the reader. Argh! As I said 12smile, forgive me for over analyzing..


In five years of carrying I've become less ego-centric as I've seen how much effort others have made for the rights I enjoy.

I'm thinking that LAKE PHALEN AND THE MINNEAPOLIS BIKE TRAILS ARE "HOT ZONES" AND DIFFERENT TACTICS ARE CALLED FOR.

Ordinarily I would AVOID these areas but I'm not giving up these amenities to the Thugs.

I repeat...I only open carry when on the bike...if there are benefits to a medallion stating I'm Licensed to Carry I want to know that.

Also one option would be a clear plastic belt clip display holder for my actual permit card....I've seen security guards with ID's from their employer using those.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:01 pm 
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Quote:
You're skipping a step: how the badge protects you in some way that the gun does not.


I hope that's what I am getting at in part 2 here:

Communicating at a distance to a Thug in waiting..
I carry a Kel-Tec .380 and in a black nylon holster it looks like a cell phone...in fact you could argue that such a small pistol in that holster really is effectively concealed or disguised as a cell phone...If I were carrying a long barrel chrome plated 1911 .45 THAT VISUAL may be sufficient to telegraph my status.

Quote:
2) Communicating at a distance to someone who would "murder you for sport" The displayed pistol should read "not an easy victim" I'm going to get as good as I give if I attack this MOFO...I'll wait for a skinny girl to come by" The dreaded CCW Badge also helps identify the black thing on my hip as a loaded firearm and NOT a cell phone...before the addition of the CCW badge I think most bad guys thought it was just a cell phone. These thugs are loitering waiting to pounce..the visual of the displayed pistol could be enough to scramble thier plans while you safely pass through their zone of influence.

I also need to emphasize I WOULD ORDINARILY STAY THE HELL OUT OF THESE AREAS...they should be defined as Hot Zones where out-of-the-ordinary tactics are required.

AVOIDANCE works for me but I'm not giving up biking in my city.


Last edited by 12smile on Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:07 pm 
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When thinking rationally, you first examine the problem, and then look for the best solution.

You don't think of a solution, then tie yourself in knots trying to rationalize it. That's what it sounds like you are doing.

Wear the gun and ride your bike. Any thug observant enough to notice a little gold badge will also notice the little black gun -- especially when it is in your hand and pointed at his center of mass.

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* NRA, UT, MADFI certified Minnesota Permit to Carry instructor, and one of 66,513 law-abiding permit holders. Read my blog.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:17 pm 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
When thinking rationally, you first examine the problem, and then look for the best solution.

You don't think of a solution, then tie yourself in knots trying to rationalize it. That's what it sounds like you are doing.

Wear the gun and ride your bike. Any thug observant enough to notice a little gold badge will also notice the little black gun -- especially when it is in your hand and pointed at his center of mass.


Thanks...this is the kind of feeback I'm looking for.

In my experience the dinky holstered Kel-Tec .380 just doesn't get noticed.

However I AM shopping for a Glock 30 or 36 in .45 caliber...still a small gun but one I would use exclusively for open carry while biking and in home protection.


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 Post subject: Re: Open Carry and the Little "CCW Badge"
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:47 pm 
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12smile wrote:
Most of my bike rides include a uniquely dangerous pathway that goes through the second most dangerous neighborhood (Phillips) in Minneapolis...the Midtown Greenway..a below grade train bed paved for peds and bikes...there have been equally horrific crimes there such as swarming / stomping attacks of 8-10 juvenile males resulting in permanent brain damage. Typical attack are done in goups of 3 or more and the perps are typically juveniles.


Have you considered altering your bike routes to avoid this dilemma? I understand it may not be possible if you're commuting. I also understand that you may not want to give up amenities for thugs, but I'd gladly give up certain amenities to avoid looking like that gentleman in the photo. I've chosen to live in a certain neighborhood when I could have bought a house much cheaper in some crappy ones--everything has a cost. I was willing to part with more of my money to live in a neighborhood that isn't crime ridden. Maybe in this case, the cost of situational avoidance is giving up the convenience of certain bike paths. For me, carrying actually makes me avoid situations like this more than I would have before I carried. I carry it, but I prefer never to have to use it for the reason I carry it.


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 Post subject: Re: Open Carry and the Little "CCW Badge"
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:08 pm 
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Quote:
Have you considered altering your bike routes to avoid this dilemma? Maybe in this case, the cost of situational avoidance is giving up the convenience of certain bike paths. For me, carrying actually makes me avoid situations like this more than I would have before I carried.


I practice avoidance since I've been carrying...crossing the street to avoid suspicious activity. I've ingrained the idea of RETREAT into my behavior pretty well.

However...this pathway links my extremely desireable and safe neighborhood with lake Calhoun and the network of paths...the alternative is actually more dangerous.

The "Concealed Weapon Permit Medallion" may have to go...a clear plastic belt mounted holder for the very sturdy plastic Hennepin County PTC card might work.

I've jokingly thought of a half dozen red white and blue battery powered flashing led's around the holster...but that would really be impersonating something :)


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 Post subject: Re: Open Carry and the Little "CCW Badge"
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:12 pm 
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12smile wrote:
The "Concealed Weapon Permit Medallion" may have to go...a clear plastic belt mounted holder for the very sturdy plastic Hennepin County PTC card might work.


What purpose would this serve? Most who would recognize the permit would not be calling in a MWAG, the thugs aren't going to give 2 hoots about a card, they'll be more convinced by the sight of the gun, and those that would call in a MWAG are probably not going to take the time to check to see what the card is about nor would they probably be educated about carry laws in the first place.

I really see no advantage to displaying your permit card.


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 Post subject: Re: Open Carry and the Little "CCW Badge"
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:19 pm 
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12smile wrote:
Quote:
Have you considered altering your bike routes to avoid this dilemma? Maybe in this case, the cost of situational avoidance is giving up the convenience of certain bike paths. For me, carrying actually makes me avoid situations like this more than I would have before I carried.


I practice avoidance since I've been carrying...crossing the street to avoid suspicious activity. I've ingrained the idea of RETREAT into my behavior pretty well.

However...this pathway links my extremely desireable and safe neighborhood with lake Calhoun and the network of paths...the alternative is actually more dangerous.

The "Concealed Weapon Permit Medallion" may have to go...a clear plastic belt mounted holder for the very sturdy plastic Hennepin County PTC card might work.

I've jokingly thought of a half dozen red white and blue battery powered flashing led's around the holster...but that would really be impersonating something :)


I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I'm having trouble understanding the logic here. You talk about things like retreat and avoidance....but then you strap on your roscoe and carry permit badge, hop on your bicycle, and head straight into an area where multiple robberies and beat-downs of joggers and bicyclists have occured.

I understand that you have a right to be there, but the fact that you feel the need to take such drastic measures to ensure your safety tells me you're asking for trouble and probably shouldn't be there in the first place. The badge thing is another story entirely, but most of us are in agreement that it's a bad idea.

I wonder how you would explain the fact that you're carrying a badge, in the event that you're involved in a shooting?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:59 pm 
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The consensus I've seen here and elswhere is a near universal thumbs down on the Concealed Weapon Permit medallion....so is there ANY VALUE TO IT.

i look at that guys sewn up skull and and think I'd do ANYTHING not to wind up like that...but these atrocities are being comitted every week.

I'd have to survey a wider audience than tccarry to find an actual positive instance.

Are there any instances of the CCW medallion being of benefit to society?

...you wouldn't see a bouncer with one...we want bouncers to be completely unarmed.

How about a Liquor Store Owner working behind the counter at a Liquor Store. Pawn Shop Owner with a small round medallion on his belt "Concealed Weapon Permit"

Those are vague hypotheticals...but I think the idea of the medallion started in "must conceal" states like Texas and Georgia..

Here we HAVE the option of open carry...I guess the CCW Badge guys want to telegraph their possesion of a weapon in a VERY SPECIFIC SITUATION...

OK...How about a pizza delivery guy in texas...high risk occupation and he must conceal his firearm...the badge gives him a convenient end-run around concealment requirements...

Anyway...I'd like to end this thread with one of the more articulate Civilian Firearms Insturctors on this forum outlining the

TOP 3 REASONS WHY CCW MEDALLIONS SUCK AND WHY THAT'S BAD FOR THE CIVILIAN FIREAMS COMMUNITY.

Every thread I've read on national forums on this subject wind up closed due to snarky cheapshots and personal bickering....we're Minnesotans...we can do better than that :)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:21 pm 
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What people here are trying to tell you:

No matter what you say, if you carry a badge, it will look to others like you are a cop, or as likely, it will look to others that you are "pretending" to be a cop. Where will that get you?

I have seen a lot of different badges in my career. I can't read them til I am way too close. That being true, no bad guy is going to look at your badge from 25 yards away and read, "Concealed Weapons Permit Holder".

He is going to think, "cop?".

Please, just admit that you want peoeple to think you are the police so that they leave you alone. That's what it sounds like to me.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:24 pm 
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There is no end run...nobody is going to mistake a pizza delivery boy for a cop, or a liquor store clerk for a cop.

The badges exist for one sole purpose. The theory is that if your gun becomes visible, the flash of a badge would make another person think that you might be a cop, and therefore not call the police.

This is very flawed logic. If you flash in a conceal-required state, you've probably broken the law. In the case of Minnesota, we are in no way required to conceal, and therefore should (emphasis, SHOULD) suffer no legal penalties should said sheeple call the police.

I'll let Andrew, Joel, or one of the other well-respected veteran instructors follow this up, but I highly disagree with the concept of going into an area where a confrontation is more likely and relying on the fact that I am showing a gun on my hip to keep me out of trouble. The gun itself paints you as a person of interest, and a badge is often a target in a crime-ridden area.

Farnam is a lot smarter than most of us could ever hope to be. I'll leave with his famous quote:

"A superior gunman is best defined as one who uses his superior judgment in order to keep himself out of situations that would require the use of his superior skills."

-Mark


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:04 am 
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Yup, to all the conventional wisdom here. I think there are definitely some situations where a reasonable person might want a bad person to think he's a cop and leave him alone; there's no way to get that to happen without a lot of bad side effects.

And let's not even get to the situation where somebody with warrants on him thinks that the permit holder is a cop who is about to arrest him, and chooses to do something not entirely nice about that . . .

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:18 am 
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I thought the reason for buying a "Concealed Weapon Permit Holder" badge was to obtain a 25% discount from most donut shops, coffee shops, and adult bookstores.





:lol:


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