Open Carry and the Little "CCW Badge"
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lance22
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:39 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:02 am Posts: 817 Location: Eagan, MN
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Traveler wrote: I thought the reason for buying a "Concealed Weapon Permit Holder" badge was to obtain a 25% discount from most donut shops, coffee shops, and adult bookstores.
Ha! First time I've heard that one!
_________________ Clinging to guns and religion.
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ironbear
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:55 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:08 pm Posts: 546 Location: Roseville
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12smile wrote: ... thumbs down on the Concealed Weapon Permit medallion....so is there ANY VALUE TO IT.
I would assume that there is substantial profit margin built into it for the manufacturer and dealer.....
_________________ You can't save the Earth unless you're willing to make other people sacrifice. ~Dogbert~
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joelr
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:31 am |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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tman065 wrote: Ronin069 wrote: On a side note...Unless they are cops telling you what a great idea it is to wear a carry badge I would be curious as to who the "smarter and more experienced observers" are that you are referring to. Likely you did not mean it this way but it reads to me as a knock against the very knowledgeable folks on this board. Forgive me if that was not your intent, it is just my perception.... The way I read it, he WAS asking this board for their opinions and explanations. Yup. My reading, too. While I think I'm pretty clearly on the record as being against the whole carry permit badge thing, I very much want to be on the record even more in favor of bringing up ideas and discussing them -- and the ideas don't have to be good ones for that to be a useful exercise.
Heck, if somebody wants to bring up the virtue of the legally-mandated shooting qual consisting of only ten rounds fired with a borrowed, pre-loaded .22, with a passing score of not actually shooting anybody, I'll be amenable to it.
_________________ Just a guy.
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MostlyHarmless
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:16 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:24 pm Posts: 471 Location: 12 miles east of Lake Wobegon
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The best construction I can put on 12smile's advocacy in favor of "carry" badges goes like this. Badges, in Minnesota as in most other places, are not given exclusively to law enforcement. Certain private security contractors wear badges, some fire and rescue personnel wear badges, certain non-sworn employees of the state and federal government wear badges (park employees, for example, and driver's license examiners). In light of this relatively broad non-LE use, and in the absence of statutes or regulations regarding the use of badges or insignia (other than an actual attempt to impersonate LE, which is really not what's at work here), I think 12smile can legitimately ask whether the use of a badge to publicize some sort of empowerment under the law is appropriate. Similarly, I think it is plausible for 12smile to believe that doing so does not involve impersonation of LE even though many if not most people might disagree.
I still think it's a bad idea and I'm calling out the above just so that I can help give this idea a decent burial.
The first problem, IMO, is that badges are confusing without the context provided by the balance of the uniform which they customarily accompany. Law enforcement agencies generally discourage casual display of a badge (with or without a gun visible) by plainclothes officers. LEOs who work with the public without a uniform do not ordinarily produce a badge except in one-on-one situations where they are identifying themselves. It's under an outer layer of clothing the rest of the time. While there are exceptions, they are problematic for LE and are discouraged or regulated by department policy in at least some outfits. Those current and former LEOs on the board may wish to comment on this.
Fire department, EMT, private security, park rangers, and others who wear badges while interacting with the public do so almost exclusively while in uniform.
I believe that the public at large and most law enforcement are more likely to be puzzled, initially, than anything else by the presence of a badge and gun without a uniform. Being on a bike, with an unusual badge, no uniform, is a combination that doesn't fit expected norms. I do not believe it is wise to create such confusion, and it could easily result in unwanted publicity, a legislative response, or harassment by police, especially if the use of such badges became widespread.
I believe that the tactical benefit in terms of scaring away bad guys who are easily scared by cops would be outweighed by the fact that there are plenty of bad guys who would love to catch a cop alone and relieve them of gun, badge, other credentials, radio, etc., incidents that happen all too often and frequently result in serious, deliberate injury to the cop.
Finally, I believe that biking the greenway at dusk, alone, is poor tactics no matter how you're armed.
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12smile
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:33 pm |
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:03 am Posts: 227
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Dang....
That is by far the best response to the sticky issue of "CCW Badge" in the history of the written word.
Intelligent, thoughtful, articulate....If I owned this forum I'd reward you with a bunch of range passes.
This is why I posted my concerns. On loosley moderated national forums the issue becomes a useless flamefest.
I would say my immediate motivation was THE FIFTH LAKE PHALEN ASSAULT (where this thread originated) and the graphic image of an 81 year old man whose head had been stitched back together.
His grandson is a contributor to this forum and there are friends of the original Lake Phalen victim here as well.
In the future I'll be biking with a Glock 30 the double stack 45. I'll use an extended mag and possibly a good solution would be to choose a holster that looks like "a Holster" the black nylon holster I currently use really disguises the 380 pistol and it looks like a cell phone.
Last edited by 12smile on Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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joelr
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:36 pm |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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Yup. It's good.
I have a relative who works for the Homer Simpson Department Of Health (DOH!) in NYC. She has to carry a badge, because it's (theoretically) possible that she could need to go offsite to a place where there will be cops about, who won't let one in without an official-looking badge. (This particular relative wouldn't consider hanging her badge on her belt next to her gun, as she's strongly hoplophobic, alas. Not about the first part of that, but about the last.)
_________________ Just a guy.
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Ramoel
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:16 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:52 pm Posts: 826 Location: MN
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I think your carry permit and photo ID held up in your hand would be far more acceptable to the police than some CCW badge.
Your permit and ID is state authorized, a badge, while not unlawful, is kind of pretentious.
_________________ Ron
NRA Life Member
USS Bristol DD857
_________________________
If life was fair, Robins couldn't eat worms...
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JustMe
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:40 am |
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Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:24 pm Posts: 16 Location: twin cities metro area
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Quote: Most of my bike rides include a uniquely dangerous pathway that goes through the second most dangerous neighborhood (Phillips) in Minneapolis...the Midtown Greenway..a below grade train bed paved for peds and bikes...there have been equally horrific crimes there such as swarming / stomping attacks of 8-10 juvenile males resulting in permanent brain damage. Typical attack are done in goups of 3 or more and the perps are typically juveniles.
12Smile: What is the most dangerous neighborhood in Minneapolis? I am not familiar with the danger ratings of areas of Minneapolis (or St. Paul), and want to know of areas to exercise caution and try to avoid if possible. Is North Minneapolis (or part of it) the most?
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12smile
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:55 am |
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:03 am Posts: 227
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JustMe wrote: 12Smile: What is the most dangerous neighborhood in Minneapolis? I am not familiar with the danger ratings of areas of Minneapolis (or St. Paul), and want to know of areas to exercise caution and try to avoid if possible. Is North Minneapolis (or part of it) the most?
go to city of Mpls web site / police dept / crime maps...available as pdf..you'll see allkinds of crimes as indiviual maps...
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joelr
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:10 pm |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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JustMe wrote: Most of my bike rides include a uniquely dangerous pathway that goes through the second most dangerous neighborhood (Phillips) in Minneapolis...the Midtown Greenway..a below grade train bed paved for peds and bikes...there have been equally horrific crimes there such as swarming / stomping attacks of 8-10 juvenile males resulting in permanent brain damage. Typical attack are done in goups of 3 or more and the perps are typically juveniles.
12Smile: What is the most dangerous neighborhood in Minneapolis? I am not familiar with the danger ratings of areas of Minneapolis (or St. Paul), and want to know of areas to exercise caution and try to avoid if possible. Is North Minneapolis (or part of it) the most? 12Smile's right about the maps. In south Minneapolis, the obvious problem near me is Powderhorn, as well as the den of iniquity down by the Crosstown and 34th called Bossen Terrace, the Mos Eisley of Minneapolis.
_________________ Just a guy.
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mrokern
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:26 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm Posts: 2264 Location: Eden Prairie
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joelr wrote: JustMe wrote: Most of my bike rides include a uniquely dangerous pathway that goes through the second most dangerous neighborhood (Phillips) in Minneapolis...the Midtown Greenway..a below grade train bed paved for peds and bikes...there have been equally horrific crimes there such as swarming / stomping attacks of 8-10 juvenile males resulting in permanent brain damage. Typical attack are done in goups of 3 or more and the perps are typically juveniles.
12Smile: What is the most dangerous neighborhood in Minneapolis? I am not familiar with the danger ratings of areas of Minneapolis (or St. Paul), and want to know of areas to exercise caution and try to avoid if possible. Is North Minneapolis (or part of it) the most? 12Smile's right about the maps. In south Minneapolis, the obvious problem near me is Powderhorn, as well as the den of iniquity down by the Crosstown and 34th called Bossen Terrace, the Mos Eisley of Minneapolis.
Except if Han shot first in Bossen Terrace, he'd be doing 20 to life in a prison block even if the weird looking guy was holding a gun on him...
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johngagemn
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:02 pm |
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Journeyman Member |
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Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:28 am Posts: 84 Location: Hoodbury, MN aka: The Wood
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Ramoel wrote: Your permit and ID is state authorized, a badge, while not unlawful, is kind of pretentious.
Absolutely.
Speaking as someone who in the past had EARNED the privilege to wear a badge (FD, not PD) I really find it insulting when I see people wearing a badge that is purchased, not earned. I had to go through hundreds of hours of initial training, pass several state and national certification tests, and go through an extensive field training program and probationary period before I received my badge and the right to wear it.
Wearing a badge is generally reserved for those who have made a commitment that they are willing to put their lives on the line to protect others. A CCW badge is nothing more than a thinly veiled way of trying to look like you are someone of authority.
Now, I realize that the personal feelings of those who work in public safety have little to do with the right to self-defense, but I thought you might at least want a little insight as to why a lot of the folks who work in public safety frown upon things like a CCW badge .
_________________ Charter Member, Red Knights MC - MN 4
"Loyal To Our Duty"
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White Horseradish
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:38 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:52 pm Posts: 700 Location: Northeast Minneapolis
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Seems kinda simple to me. A PD badge means something. A FD badge means something. Even a security guard's badge means something, being issued by a specific company. A CCW badge means jack.
Do I really have to say it?
'Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges! I don't have to show you any stinkin' badges!'
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MostlyHarmless
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:30 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:24 pm Posts: 471 Location: 12 miles east of Lake Wobegon
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I wouldn't go that far. The badges and uniforms issued by security companies mean little or nothing beyond the fact that, if genuine, the wearer is being paid $9.75 an hour to sit at the front desk and watch the door. The background check and the training requirements for a carry permit are more strict in some cases though I do realize that there are a handful of quality outfits out there who are more careful.
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mnmike59
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Post subject: Re: Open Carry and the Little "CCW Badge" Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:13 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:49 pm Posts: 105
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12smile wrote: Serious Disclaimer:
at a close range they can see the seal of the state of Minnesota and read "Concealed Weapon Permit" HOPEFULLY they can exhale and relax assuming "background check" and "Training"
Very interesting thread. One thing I noticed immediate is
"They can see the seal"
Any of the badges I've seen at the gun shows are very difficult to read unless there at arms length.
I understand not wanting to give in to the thugs. So with that I would advise you to plan your best defense in case a situation arises. It sounds like you know the areas well, so you can imagine where the places of attack could possibly come from. Plan an escape or?
Good luck Sir.
Be safe
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