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 Instructor Question 
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 Post subject: Instructor Question
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 8:09 am 
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Just curious if many people are still getting permits. Are you busier than normal? Slower than normal or about average?


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 9:34 am 
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average to slow

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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 9:43 am 
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I'd say that's just about right, although late spring does tend to be a slowish season, in my experience.

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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 9:50 am 
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Normal load during the January to March time frame, but more inquiries and a few more in a class than normal after the Virgina Tech shooting based on what I have done in the last 4 years. The June and through the summer months slow done for me, which it appears to have done as expected.

But now we are coming into the renewel period, so there may be another slight upswing, but I really don't expect to see much of that until very early 2008.


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 10:21 am 
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I heard that it is so slow now that instructors are going to other instructors classes just to boost the numbers..... oh..... and there is the byproduct of being able to renew :D :D :D :D :D

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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 10:40 am 
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guarana wrote:
I heard that it is so slow now that instructors are going to other instructors classes just to boost the numbers..... oh..... and there is the byproduct of being able to renew :D :D :D :D :D
Almost funny.

More seriously, as somebody or other pointed out, renewal training time has started. Most instructors got their five-year carry permits back during the spring/summer flurry of 2003. While it may or may not be legally okay for an instructor to sign off on himself -- there's arguments on both sides of the issue -- all in all, it's a bad idea. Among other things, it looks like the sort of shortcuts and shady practices that some folks -- nobody here, I hope and believe -- do on other issues.

Can an instructor sign off on himself? Can somebody whose only shooting experience is ten shots at a target with a .22 short and hit the paper once have completed an "actual shooting qualification exercise"? Can a qual be done in a hotel room with a pellet gun?

I don't see (ETA: "any good reason") why anybody would want to put himself or herself forth as that sort of example, or test case.

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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 3:54 pm 
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I guess I have not thought much about it, but if I am good enough to cerify others why not certify myself for renewal? After I got my Utah course figured out I signed my own Utah application.

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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 4:24 pm 
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glreis wrote:
I guess I have not thought much about it, but if I am good enough to cerify others why not certify myself for renewal? After I got my Utah course figured out I signed my own Utah application.
Well, given that the Utah authorities specifically say you can do that, that seems to be at least a little bit different. But look at the requirements under 624.714; it's at least arguable that you aren't able to issue a training certificate to yourself.

It's possible -- and some instructors do -- look for the lowest common denominator. In the interest of getting the shooting qual done "efficiently," why not not put a loaded Ruger Mark II down at the shooting point, and have each student pick it up, fire one shot at a target three feet away, then put it down and go onto the next?

Is that an "actual shooting qualification exercise" under the law? Maybe. But wouldn't that be an obvious sort of shady practice?

Assume -- for the purposes of argument, and also because it's true -- that the antigun groups are looking over our shoulder here, is this really the sort of, err, ammo that they ought to be given?

I'm not advocating conducting training in a way to mollify the antis; there's no way to do that, and it's pointless. But I am arguing that taking shortcuts that are both unreasonable and would look bad just isn't a good idea, for any number of reasons. Is, once every five years, sitting through somebody else's class such an imposition on anybody's time?

And, for that matter, if we were going to take such shortcuts, is there some reason that we shouldn't expect would-be permit holders to find and take a quickie class that, at best, barely meets the requirements of the law?

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Last edited by joelr on Sun May 27, 2007 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 5:17 pm 
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Why sit through another instructor's class??

* Looks better than self certification
* Observe another instructor's teaching methods
* See how other instructors cover material
* See what they cover that you don't and vice/versa
* Learn something
* You can only gain by watching others
* Entire movement is strengthened through participation

.................to name a few

:) :) :) :)

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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 6:44 pm 
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There does seem to be a "season" to the Permit process, with Summers typically not as busy...

I have been fairly busy, but based on past experience, it would not be unusual to see less participants. But...the renewal issue likely will skew things....

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 Post subject: Very Busy
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:54 am 
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I have been busier than at any time since 2003! I'm pretty sure things will slow down now with other things (vacation, fishing, weddings, etc) taking priority. I have been doing an average of two classes per week since early January.

I will consider it to be a distinct privelege to take my permit renewal training from the best instructor in the tundra - Paul Horvick! Although I have, on occasion, questioned Mr. Horvick's sanity regarding his trips to Nebraska and Illinois (I know, money is a motivator for most of us), I nonetheless consider Paul strange enough to be on my short list of good friends!

Don't worry Tom T - you are still on the list of strange friends!

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 10:01 am 
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joelr wrote:
glreis wrote:
I guess I have not thought much about it, but if I am good enough to cerify others why not certify myself for renewal? After I got my Utah course figured out I signed my own Utah application.
Well, given that the Utah authorities specifically say you can do that, that seems to be at least a little bit different. But look at the requirements under 624.714; it's at least arguable that you aren't able to issue a training certificate to yourself.

It's possible -- and some instructors do -- look for the lowest common denominator. In the interest of getting the shooting qual done "efficiently," why not not put a loaded Ruger Mark II down at the shooting point, and have each student pick it up, fire one shot at a target three feet away, then put it down and go onto the next?

Is that an "actual shooting qualification exercise" under the law? Maybe. But wouldn't that be an obvious sort of shady practice?

Assume -- for the purposes of argument, and also because it's true -- that the antigun groups are looking over our shoulder here, is this really the sort of, err, ammo that they ought to be given?

I'm not advocating conducting training in a way to mollify the antis; there's no way to do that, and it's pointless. But I am arguing that taking shortcuts that are both unreasonable and would look bad just isn't a good idea, for any number of reasons. Is, once every five years, sitting through somebody else's class such an imposition on anybody's time?

And, for that matter, if we were going to take such shortcuts, is there some reason that we shouldn't expect would-be permit holders to find and take a quickie class that, at best, barely meets the requirements of the law?


I now understand......... Thanks Joel

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 Post subject: Re: Very Busy
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 2:29 pm 
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jerry45 wrote:
I will consider it to be a distinct privelege to take my permit renewal training from the best instructor in the tundra - Paul Horvick! Although I have, on occasion, questioned Mr. Horvick's sanity regarding his trips to Nebraska and Illinois (I know, money is a motivator for most of us), I nonetheless consider Paul strange enough to be on my short list of good friends!

Don't worry Tom T - you are still on the list of strange friends!


He addopted me :roll: :P :P


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 Post subject: Re: Very Busy
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:21 pm 
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A Brit in MN wrote:
jerry45 wrote:
I will consider it to be a distinct privelege to take my permit renewal training from the best instructor in the tundra - Paul Horvick! Although I have, on occasion, questioned Mr. Horvick's sanity regarding his trips to Nebraska and Illinois (I know, money is a motivator for most of us), I nonetheless consider Paul strange enough to be on my short list of good friends!

Don't worry Tom T - you are still on the list of strange friends!


He addopted me :roll: :P :P


Have to be strange to hang out with you characters :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

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