I'm not talking about using 10-inch-barrel .22-cal target pistols with custom everything, taking one shot per 30 seconds at 50 feet while looking through a barrel-mounted telescope -- not that there's nothing wrong with that, if it's your idea of a fun time.

I'm talking about taking shots at two- or three-second intervals with an unadorned defensive-caliber pistol at 21 feet.

I felt I had a good day at the range on Sunday, but I'm wondering how good it really was. What do you consider a good group size at that distance?

I do not perceive myself as particularly accurate...old eyes, shaky hands etc. For me, it clearly depends on the gun. On a good day, I will be in the 2-4" group for some guns, 4-6" for some.

I do not make one ragged small hole.

Shoot at siloett targets and you have your answer as to "good enough" as you shoot. The BG will not be more impressed by a 2" group compared to a 12" group if the bigger group consists of 2 to the chest and one to the head...

Alternatively participate in the defensive handgun league and you will get a good feel from your score (humbling sometimes) in comparison to others.

Mostly-

When I'm shooting at a bullseye target, I'm disappointed if I'm not tearing big holes at, or near, the center of the target. When I'm shooting the silhouette targets at Bill's, the one with the organs outlined, I feel better. I'll fire some shots and then say, "That's gotta hurt" when I see holes in the heart, lungs, liver and spleen. I was shooting a Marlin 1894C with .38 +p ammo on Saturday at one of those targets at 50' offhand with no scope. Except for one shot that went quite awry, I was happy with the number of "owies" I put on that paper.

Anything within the 8 or 10 ring kill zone. or the size of a softball. I was at DOJ training meeting last week and the trainer said that the U.S. DOJ came out and said that a rule of thumb is now 31' for your self defense.

Well, obviously, the smaller the better -- remember that under real stress, your groups are just this side of certain to increase. If, doing reasonably rapid fire, you can keep them on a paper plate at 21 feet , you're liable to be able to keep them inside a bad guy at a much more likely closer-than-12 feet distance. Better if you can halve that.

Me, I think I'm doing really well if I can put five or six rounds, rapidly fired, pointshooting, into about a fist-sized group at 21 feet, and can do that much -- not all -- of the time with my carry snubbies.

I can do a little better than that pointshooting with my carry semiautos, and better still with the sights.

Hmm. I can't speak for anyone else. If it comes to self-defense IMO anything inside the lungs is good enough to me. When it comes to shooting paper... if you remember the green POST silhouette targets at Bills, I think keeping them within the center oval is good.

It really depends on what you want to do. Personally, when I'm shooting at that speed I'm disappointed in myself if I create an overall group larger than about 2 1/2" with my compact pistol. That's just me, though... I used to shoot target pistol competitions, so I probably have different expectations. Unfortunately I haven't had the money to practice for a while. I went to the range and shot on Valentine's Day. Yeah, I was pretty dang disappointed in myself.

If I have any bad days shooting at the 5 spot targets, I just compare it to the Center of Mass of a person and I feel better.

I think the fastest you can shoot and be accurate(CoM) is a good goal.

Check out my target where I shot as fast as I can: http://twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewto ... highlight=

Then again, it depends on what you're doing.

I took a hostage rescue shot -- at the range -- a few months ago. Roger and Sue had a special on a hostage rescue target, and my daughter Judy insisted on betting that I couldn't put one shot into the right zone.

Easy money. But it was, of course, just practice. That one might not do as well in real life isn't news -- remember what William Tell had that extra arrow hidden in his clothes for.

(For those of you who were culturally deprived, it was to nail the Austrian official who had insisted that he shoot the apple off his son's head in the first place, if Tell had hit his son instead. Gessler got a bit ticked off at that, and Tell ended up nailing him with a crossbow bolt later on, anyway.)

If I can hit the white part I'm happy.

Mass said if you put a bowling pin outline on a target, centered in the spine with the top of the pin at chin level, if your shots fall in the pin you're as good as you can get for self defense.

Had a lady in my class awhile back who would consistently put 12rds of 9mm into a hole the size of a silver dollar; at 21 ft. Didn't seem to matter if she was aim or point shooting.

Asked her how often she practiced and she said, "oh, at least every other month." How do you say 'natural'?

Makes me a little green...

When I took a basic handgun class, the guy shooting next to me was hitting dead center at 25 feet, shredding the center of the bullseye. I casually said to him, "You've done this before, haven't you?" He replied, "No, I've never shot a gun before today." It was almost enough to make me take up crocheting.

FWIW

I consider GOOD shooting to be able to keep all shots in the center mass of a target 21 feet away to within a handspan sized group.

That is with a standard self defense weapon shooting as fast as one can reasonably get a sight picture and properly manipulate the trigger for good solid shooting. (Controlled Pairs)

2-3 seconds between shots with a completely stock service pistol should yield some very tight groups - but that is shooting way too slow for SD shooting IMHO.

I have been trained that to achieve a handspan or slightly ssmaller group is what you would want to strive for at 21 feet - Center Mass - Obtaining a sight picture for every shot - watching the front sight like a hawk.

2-3 seconds is a lot of time to surgically place shots....

My speed varies and my accuracy goes up and down inversely. At Front Sight, when we were shooting at static targets, they told us to try and cover the 2, 4, 6 or 8 round group on the paper with the palm of our hand. If the group was well within the palm sized area, we should try and speed up. If it was outside the area, we should slow down a bit until the shots were grouping a bit tighter. Using this metric, everybody knew when they were being too careful and slow and when they were rushing it; this also got people progressing from slow to faster, "accurate enough" shooting at a pretty good learning pace.

At longer distances, like 25 and 50 yards (!), the time allotted for shooting 2 rounds was much longer, like 5 and 7 seconds, but the holes were still expected to be within that handspan. Up close, the times got much, much tighter. (At 3 meters, it was 2 rounds in 1.5 seconds from concealment) Often, my second shot struck the target as it was turning away leaving an oblong hole in the target.

Dirk

It's happened with two of my B2C students. In one case, the guy was from England, and had never so much as been in the presence of a handgun before he took the class. I spent far more time trying to persuade him that pointshooting cloverleaf groups at 21 feet with a snubby was unusual than I did teaching him shooting technique.

(Just for the record, if I shoot a cloverleaf group at 21 feet with my snubby it's coincidence, not skill. I can sometimes get reasonably tight groups, but, sheesh...)