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 Obama BANS resale of once-used military brass 
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:49 pm 
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done

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"Undoubtedly some think the Second Amendment is outmoded in a society where our standing army is the pride of our Nation, where well-trained police forces provide personal security, and where gun violence is a serious problem. That is perhaps debatable, but what is not debatable is that it is not the role of this Court to pronounce the Second Amendment extinct."--Justice Scalia


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:05 pm 
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A word of caution before we all go hog wild. It is possible that this is a hoax

If you read the following document
https://demil.osd.mil/demil_get_file.asp?link_id=315

Under section 5. (Fired Small Arms Cartridge cases) (d)
the language is a little confusing but it looks like only small arms cartridge cases destined for overseas sales needs to be demilled.

Quote:
(d) Expended small arms cartridge cases, caliber .50 and under may be sold on non-national type sales in CONUS provided sales lots do not exceed 250 pounds. The maximum daily offering will not exceed 500 pounds and is limited to 2000 pounds per month. A completed End Use Certificate (EUC) is required from each purchaser and will be reviewd by the responsible DRMO personnel for completeness. The EUC will then be forwarded to the servicing DLA Trade Security Control Resident Officer (TSCRO).
DRMS will notify each purchaser that subject property cannot be exported or sold to any parties outside the United States without first being totally destroyed. Expended small arms cartridge cases, caliber .50 and under, after being properly inspected, certified, and verified, shall be crushed, shredded or otherwise destroyed prior to public sale through a qualified Recycling Program.

The last sentence in that paragraph seems to be the instructions for when it is sold outside the United States.


the above was from the current DOD Guidance/Policy page at the DOD Demil site
https://demil.osd.mil/demil_disposal_guidance.asp

the document title is :
AEDA and Range Residue Interim Policy (DoD 4160.21-M, Ch. 4, Para. B3)
Ammunition, Explosives and Dangerous Articles (AEDA), AEDA Residue and Range residue and Explosives-Contaminated Property (ECP)


However, the Georgia Arms page lists this as true.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:22 am 
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Dee wrote:
A word of caution before we all go hog wild. It is possible that this is a hoax

[...]

However, the Georgia Arms page lists this as true.


There seems to be no doubt that the DOD sent the letter to Georgia Arms, and that Georgia Arms did not intend to export the brass.

Which leaves us two possibilities. Either the DOD has changed its policy, or someone at DOD mistakenly believed that the rules for exported ammo applied to the Georgia Arms sale.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:02 am 
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Funny, but I don't think that anyone who actually reads the letters that Georgia Arms received thinks this is a hoax:

Quote:
Larry Haynie
Georgia Arms
PO Box 238
Villa Rica, GA 30180

Re: Event 7084-6200:

Dear Larry Haynie,

Effective immediately DOD Surplus, LLC, will be implementing new requirements for
mutilation of fired shell casings. The new DRMS requirement calls for DOD Surplus
personnel to witness the mutilation of the property and sign the Certificate of Destruction.
Mutilation of the property can be done at the DRMO, if permitted by the Government, or
it may be mutilated at a site chosen by the buyer. Mutilation means that the property
will be destroyed to the extent prevents its reuse or reconstruction. DOD Surplus
personnel will determine when property has been sufficiently mutilated to meet the
requirements of the Government.

If you do not agree with the new conditions of your spot sale, please sign the appropriate
box provided below stating that you do not agree to the new terms and would like to
cancel your purchase effective immediately. If you do agree to the new terms please
sign in the appropriate box provided below to acknowledge your understanding and
agreement with the new requirements relating to your purchase. Fax the signed
document back to (480) 367-1450, emailed responses are not acceptable.

Please respond to this request no later than close of business Monday, March 16th, 2009.

Sincerely,

Government Liquidation.


Note the sentence: Effective immediately DOD Surplus, LLC, will be implementing new requirements for mutilation of fired shell casings.

People keep pointing to old regulations or auctions and suggesting it's a hoax. I can't imagine the owner of an ammunition manufacturer such as Georgia Arms going onto a national radio talk show to promote a hoax.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:31 am 
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I just read this on www.ar15.com:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=844248&page=11

Quote:
You might want to consider this as breaking news...

I don't post a lot around here and most of you have no idea who I am. Fact is, I'm an IT guy. A regular, run-of-the-mill computer jockey. But I happen to work for DOD Surplus/Government Liquidation. I've been told by my CEO that as of this morning the requirement to mutilate expended brass has been lift by virtue of a reclassification from Demil B to Demil Q. This applies to all calibers .50 and under. I'm still trying to get confirmation that .50 cal is included in the "safe to sell" list, or whether mutilation is still required.

I'm busy at work right now, but I will try to post back with more detail and updates when I get the chance.

Ed


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:16 pm 
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per http://georgia-arms.com/ website:

Quote:
Dear Loyal Customers,

Thanks to your voice, DOD has rescinded the order to mutilate all spent cases as of 4:30 pm on 3/17/09. We appreciate the time and effort that you expended, together we all made a difference. We will be posting the email we received from DOD as well as any additional information within the next 12-16 hours. Thanks so much and lets get to work!!! Georgia Arms

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:59 am 
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mpthole wrote:
per http://georgia-arms.com/ website:

Quote:
Dear Loyal Customers,

Thanks to your voice, DOD has rescinded the order to mutilate all spent cases as of 4:30 pm on 3/17/09. We appreciate the time and effort that you expended, together we all made a difference. We will be posting the email we received from DOD as well as any additional information within the next 12-16 hours. Thanks so much and lets get to work!!! Georgia Arms


New Love note put up today:

Quote:
NOTICE!!!

A hardy congratulation is due to our loyal customers, our good friends, and our fellow shooting enthusiasts through out this great nation! Due to the diligent and overwhelming effort of many thousands of you, calling, writing, and emailing our elected officials, DOD Surplus, LLC, has rescinded its prior directive that ALL small arms spent casings be mutilated rather than recycled. This was a huge victory for common sense and we would like to thank each and every person who made an effort and played a role in correcting this mistake. We at Georgia Arms are proud of everyone who took the time and had the courage to stand up for our rights. We believe, that by your outpouring of anger and dismay, you not only extended our liberty and freedoms but also took a stand for economic common sense in a time when we know our government should be trying to reduce costs at all levels rather than throwing money away for some politically correct reason or the other. Again, our hat is off to everyone who helped and thanks to God as well. We will roll up our sleeves and go back to work; we have 223’s and 308’s to build! (Below is a copy of the email we received from DOD on 3/17/09 @ 4:30pm)

GOD BLESS AMERICA !!!!!

(This was pertaining to an outstanding bid on a lot of brass that we won prior to the mutilation order. DOD sent us a bill for the brass after we had refused it due to the mutilation requirements. DOD on Monday sent us a bill for the brass and when we responded that we had already refused it due to the mutilation clause, we received this reply via email.)

I am sorry you hadn’t been informed –

Word came down that all shells 50 caliber or smaller CAN still be purchased without the mutilation requirement as long as kept in the US.

(As it was in limbo, I did not sent your EUC to Battle Creek until today, also why I have not contacted you for payment until today.)

Thanks!

Arana K. Wolin
Document Verification Supervisor
Government Liquidation, LLC
DOD Surplus, LLC
15051 N Kierland Blvd. #300
Scottsdale, AZ 85254

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:46 am 
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I wanted a straight answer so I called the Big O himself.

You're all worried over nothing,

He supports your second Amendment Right!!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:40 am 
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Jim C wrote:

Quote:
He supports your second Amendment Right!!


I'm sure he will also say the Second Amendment says nothing concerning the right to "keep and bear ammunition".


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:11 pm 
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westhope wrote:
I'm sure he will also say the Second Amendment says nothing concerning the right to "keep and bear ammunition".

It doesn't. The first amendment is about freedom of speech. the second amendment is about the freedom of government to limit how free your speech can be. you didnt get the memo?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:49 pm 
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I will say this though, I was not that impressed by Georgia Arms ammo prices. I only looked at 9 mm. I can buy brand new WWB 115 FMJ grain 100 ct boxes cheaper than I can 100 rounds of Georgia Arms remanufactured 115 grain FMJ (in 1000 count boxes). Add shipping on top of that and there is more of a disparity.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:18 pm 
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The latest...........
Quote:
STATEMENT FROM NRA CHIEF LOBBYIST CHRIS W. COX
Military Surplus Cartridge Case Issue Resolved

Wednesday, March 18, 2009

Yesterday morning, the Department of Defense informed NRA-ILA that fired military small arms cartridge cases are once again eligible for sale, following a temporary suspension in such sales instituted last week. NRA-ILA began discussions with DoD shortly after the suspension took effect, and we were assured from the beginning that efforts were underway to resolve the issue favorably.

Yesterday afternoon, DoD additionally confirmed the lifting of the suspension to pro-Second Amendment United States Senators Max Baucus (D-Mont.) and Jon Tester (D-Mont.), who sent the Defense Logistics Agency (DLA) a joint letter vigorously opposing the suspension, on the grounds that it had "an impact on small businesses who sell reloaded ammunition utilizing these fired casings, and upon individual gun owners who purchase spent military brass at considerable cost savings for their personal use."

Everyone who would have been impacted by the suspension, had it become permanent, owes thanks to Senator Baucus for his leadership on this issue, as well as to Sen. Tester and U.S. Rep. Denny Rehberg (R-Mont.), who also weighed in strongly on behalf of gun owners and the suppliers from whom they obtain ammunition reloaded with surplus military brass.

In announcing that the suspension has been lifted, DoD also made clear that no cartridge cases that, in the absence of the suspension, would have been sold for reloading purposes were destroyed while the suspension was in effect. Such cases were instead protected by DoD during the suspension, and are again eligible for sale. With ammunition currently in short supply, that was welcome news, to be sure.

DLA also put to rest various theories and rumors that were circulated on the internet, concerning the reason for the suspension. As DLA explained to Senators Baucus and Tester, and to NRA-ILA, DoD officials responsible for the demilitarization of military property temporarily halted the release of the cartridge cases last week, pending review of a policy change issued last year by the Office of the Secretary of Defense, which, in the interest of national security, halted the sale of items within a broad category of government property including, but not limited to, surplus small arms cartridge cases.

To make cartridge cases eligible for sale once again, DoD demilitarization officials verified that the cases could be appropriately placed in a category of government property allowing for their release for use within the United States, and then executed the recategorization. Whereas during the brief suspension, fired cartridge cases would have been releaseable only if the purchaser crushed or smelted them, now the cases may be sold as before, intact and reloadable.

DoD also assured NRA-ILA that companies previously authorized to purchase cartridge cases under Trade Security Controls need no further vetting at this time, and are eligible to resume purchasing cases under the policy adopted yesterday.

In sum, a problem that could have had serious repercussions for the remanufactured ammunition industry and the countless gun owners who support it, appears to have been resolved quickly.

For more information:

http://www.nraila.org/media/PDFs/DLA.MilitaryBrass.pdf

http://www.nraila.org/media/PDFs/DLA_mcunningham.pdf

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:53 pm 
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Hunter07 wrote:
The latest...........
Quote:
STATEMENT FROM NRA CHIEF LOBBYIST CHRIS W. COX
Military Surplus Cartridge Case Issue Resolved

Wednesday, March 18, 2009

Yesterday morning, the Department of Defense informed NRA-ILA that fired military small arms cartridge cases are once again eligible for sale, following a temporary suspension in such sales instituted last week. NRA-ILA began discussions with DoD shortly after the suspension took effect, and we were assured from the beginning that efforts were underway to resolve the issue favorably.

Yesterday afternoon, DoD additionally confirmed the lifting of the suspension to pro-Second Amendment United States Senators Max Baucus (D-Mont.) and Jon Tester (D-Mont.), who sent the Defense Logistics Agency (DLA) a joint letter vigorously opposing the suspension, on the grounds that it had "an impact on small businesses who sell reloaded ammunition utilizing these fired casings, and upon individual gun owners who purchase spent military brass at considerable cost savings for their personal use."

Everyone who would have been impacted by the suspension, had it become permanent, owes thanks to Senator Baucus for his leadership on this issue, as well as to Sen. Tester and U.S. Rep. Denny Rehberg (R-Mont.), who also weighed in strongly on behalf of gun owners and the suppliers from whom they obtain ammunition reloaded with surplus military brass.

In announcing that the suspension has been lifted, DoD also made clear that no cartridge cases that, in the absence of the suspension, would have been sold for reloading purposes were destroyed while the suspension was in effect. Such cases were instead protected by DoD during the suspension, and are again eligible for sale. With ammunition currently in short supply, that was welcome news, to be sure.

DLA also put to rest various theories and rumors that were circulated on the internet, concerning the reason for the suspension. As DLA explained to Senators Baucus and Tester, and to NRA-ILA, DoD officials responsible for the demilitarization of military property temporarily halted the release of the cartridge cases last week, pending review of a policy change issued last year by the Office of the Secretary of Defense, which, in the interest of national security, halted the sale of items within a broad category of government property including, but not limited to, surplus small arms cartridge cases.

To make cartridge cases eligible for sale once again, DoD demilitarization officials verified that the cases could be appropriately placed in a category of government property allowing for their release for use within the United States, and then executed the recategorization. Whereas during the brief suspension, fired cartridge cases would have been releaseable only if the purchaser crushed or smelted them, now the cases may be sold as before, intact and reloadable.

DoD also assured NRA-ILA that companies previously authorized to purchase cartridge cases under Trade Security Controls need no further vetting at this time, and are eligible to resume purchasing cases under the policy adopted yesterday.

In sum, a problem that could have had serious repercussions for the remanufactured ammunition industry and the countless gun owners who support it, appears to have been resolved quickly.

For more information:

http://www.nraila.org/media/PDFs/DLA.MilitaryBrass.pdf

http://www.nraila.org/media/PDFs/DLA_mcunningham.pdf


A couple of interesting points...

The two main senators called out as friends of ours for this effort are both dems...and the initial order was issued last year, under the Bush administration.

Proof that you have to look past party lines. There are dems on our side, and there are GOPers who are no friends of ours.

-Mark


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:26 am 
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mrokern wrote:
A couple of interesting points...

The two main senators called out as friends of ours for this effort are both dems...and the initial order was issued last year, under the Bush administration.

Proof that you have to look past party lines. There are dems on our side, and there are GOPers who are no friends of ours.

-Mark


+1. So often "gun folks" forget this important point...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:24 pm 
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It took a few days for the standard 'oh this email is about guns' response.

Quote:
Dear Bill:

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on guns. I appreciate having the benefit of your comments on this important and timely issue.

I believe that the Second Amendment gives our citizens the right to own guns for collection, protection and sport. As the former chief prosecutor of Minnesota's largest county, I have worked to enforce the gun laws already on the books and will continue to support ways to prosecute gun crimes on the federal level. I also support the work being done to ensure adequate background checks for gun purchasers, including potential new requirements regarding mental health background checks.

Again, thank you for taking the time to contact me. Please do not hesitate to do so again.

Sincerely,

Amy Klobuchar
United States Senator


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