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DeanC
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Post subject: Which AR? Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 4:04 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:54 am Posts: 5270 Location: Minneapolis
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The answer is here.
These guys compiled a really nice spreadsheet of all the features of the leading AR's on the market and they keep it up to date. They also have a nice explanation of each feature they document. This is not the kind of stuff you can find on-line or in a magazine. Really good info.
I stumbled on this project in an article in Guns & Ammo Combat Tactics Special Issue Fall 2008.
_________________ I am defending myself... in favor of that!
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SultanOfBrunei
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Post subject: Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 6:06 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:13 pm Posts: 1743 Location: Lakeville
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"The Chart" is infamous. I don't have a take on it, but I do know that the validity of 'the chart' is hottly debated.
Quote: This is not the kind of stuff you can find on-line or in a magazine. I just want to point out the irony here. You just posted the web address to the chart, which you found in Guns & Ammo.
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Macx
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Post subject: Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 7:00 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:37 pm Posts: 1757 Location: Whittier
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I don't think the facts are what is debated so much as the utility.
Just how important is it to me, the civillian who will probably (understated) never use his AR in combat (how likely is a civil war? really?) for my AR to be parkerized under the front sightbase/gasblock? Does having an AR without a "grenade launcher notch" really give the guys on the M4 board grounds to talk down to me (they never have because I have never bragged up my Bushmaster/Remington & have no delusions they'd need to shatter) but too often the chart seems to be used for just that kind of thing "the chrome in my barrel is thicker than yours". Sure I'd like to own one of those Noveske/Magpul specials they made a bit ago and were selling for around $3K, but I am not a good enough shot to do that piece justice, nor would I ever really, in the real world need half the features. But most guys that read automobile magazines aren't really trying to choose between the new Vette, Porsche, or Ferrari . . .either.
I like the chart, for what it is intended to be. YellowVisor did a great job collecting that data and laying it out that way. I do kinda wish it was expanded beyond just m4 and m4orgeies.
_________________ Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a
lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become
a law unto himself; it invites anarchy .” Olmstead v. U.S., 277 U.S. 438
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DeanC
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Post subject: Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 8:01 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:54 am Posts: 5270 Location: Minneapolis
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Awfully self-contradictory of me, eh? No it wasn't. Yes it was. Are you looking for an argument? No you're not.
Anyhow, my impression of THE CHART isn't so much to identify the superlative AR as to break down the parts and explain what is desirable by some people and not by others.
EG: Chrome lined bores are more durable, but not as inherently accurate.
_________________ I am defending myself... in favor of that!
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chuckw
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Post subject: Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:15 pm |
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Journeyman Member |
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:59 pm Posts: 84 Location: Minnetonka
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I watched an ex-marine use an FN rifle with a chrome lined bore to consistently hit a steel silhouette at 1000 yards. After that I came to the conclusion that most of us worry about the accuracy impact of things that we don't have the skill to notice.
_________________ "Please stop with the clichés! If your freedom means so little to you that you are not willing to fight for it politically, then do not insult my intelligence by claiming to be willing to lay down your life for it." - John Pierce
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weaselsmn
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Post subject: Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 5:10 am |
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:39 pm Posts: 32 Location: Twin Cities
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I love my DPMS A-3 Flattop style 20" fluted in .556
_________________ Glock,
Smith&Wesson
Ruger
Beretta owner
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Q_Continuum
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Post subject: Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 5:11 am |
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Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:43 am Posts: 371 Location: Anoka, MN
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Macx wrote: ...I do kinda wish it was expanded beyond just m4 and m4orgeies.
Perhaps that's a project/site to-be-done? Thought's crossed my mind.
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Q_Continuum
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Post subject: Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 5:12 am |
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Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:43 am Posts: 371 Location: Anoka, MN
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chuckw wrote: I... After that I came to the conclusion that most of us worry about the accuracy impact of things that we don't have the skill to notice.
Yup, for most people, their gun is more accurate than they have the skill to take advantage of. (Example: If I bought a M1A tomorrow, which I'd LOVE to do...I'd be more worried about MY skill than the fact the M1A's capable out to x00 yards (depending on barrel length, etc)
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Jeremiah
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Post subject: Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 7:10 am |
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Raving Moderate |
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Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:46 pm Posts: 1292 Location: Minneapolis
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Q_Continuum wrote: chuckw wrote: I... After that I came to the conclusion that most of us worry about the accuracy impact of things that we don't have the skill to notice. Yup, for most people, their gun is more accurate than they have the skill to take advantage of. (Example: If I bought a M1A tomorrow, which I'd LOVE to do...I'd be more worried about MY skill than the fact the M1A's capable out to x00 yards (depending on barrel length, etc)
You and me both. In general, most modern firearms fall under the saying "the gun will do, if you will." (My apologies to whoever first said it, and feel free to correct me, gang. )
_________________ I'm liberal, pro-choice, and I carry a gun. Any questions?
My real name is Jeremiah (go figure).
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Sietch
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Post subject: Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 11:25 am |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:05 pm Posts: 199 Location: Twin Cities, MN
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It's still nice feeling assured that my AR stacks up against the very best, even if half the charted specs are totally beyond my knowing.
_________________ "My name is Shosanna Dreyfus. This is the face of Jewish vengeance."
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gyrfalcon
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Post subject: Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 12:30 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:00 pm Posts: 373
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Rock River sure got shafted in that "comparison chart"... If you want the spectacular COLT go buy one. Let me know how quickly they work on any warranty service you might require.
_________________
In a big country dreams stay with you, like a lover's voice fires the mountainside. Stay alive.
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Carbide Insert
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Post subject: Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 1:05 pm |
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Poet Laureate |
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Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:36 am Posts: 760 Location: Hutchinson, MN
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weaselsmn wrote: I love my DPMS A-3 Flattop style 20" fluted in .556
_________________ It's not always easy these days to tell which of our two major political parties is the Stupid Party and which is the Evil Party...
But it remains true that from time to time they collaborate on something that's both stupid and evil and call it bipartisanship. -Thomas E. Woods Jr.
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Sietch
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Post subject: Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 1:53 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:05 pm Posts: 199 Location: Twin Cities, MN
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gyrfalcon wrote: Rock River sure got shafted in that "comparison chart"... If you want the spectacular COLT go buy one. Let me know how quickly they work on any warranty service you might require.
I've got the 6920. And i've sent a sight in. They were pretty cool. I still think Springfield's the best in the business though.
_________________ "My name is Shosanna Dreyfus. This is the face of Jewish vengeance."
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kecker
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 4:52 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:57 am Posts: 818 Location: Apple Valley, MN
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Jeremiah wrote: Q_Continuum wrote: chuckw wrote: I... After that I came to the conclusion that most of us worry about the accuracy impact of things that we don't have the skill to notice. Yup, for most people, their gun is more accurate than they have the skill to take advantage of. (Example: If I bought a M1A tomorrow, which I'd LOVE to do...I'd be more worried about MY skill than the fact the M1A's capable out to x00 yards (depending on barrel length, etc) You and me both. In general, most modern firearms fall under the saying "the gun will do, if you will." (My apologies to whoever first said it, and feel free to correct me, gang. )
Yeah, in the spring I shoot prairie dogs out in Nodak. Friend of mine was wanting to get into ballistic charts and mapping exact trajectories, wind calculations and all that. Basically show up out in the field with a stack of binders of information.
That was all neat to think about until your realize that your skill level just isn't there to take advantage of most of that information yet.
_________________ http://www.eckernet.com My mind is like a steel trap - rusty and illegal in 37 states.
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aczarnowski
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:02 pm |
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Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:16 pm Posts: 23 Location: Minneapolis
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http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=81462 is a great rundown for fighting ARs.
Based on that and some other research, I'd buy from CMMG if I was looking and they had anything to sell. Though not mentioned in the rundown, Anvil Arms also looks very good (I like 1/9 twist instead of 1/7 which seems standard these days).
But seriously, any name you recognize will be fine to start with. If you're good enough to find the flaws, then you don't need advice on the best AR in the first place.
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