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 Shreveport Citizens Disarmed By Police For 2A Bumper sticker 
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 Post subject: Re: Shreveport Citizens Disarmed By Police For 2A Bumper sticker
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:41 pm 
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tcglaw wrote:
Related question:
I often see print-outs in packet of police reports - one sheet of which has basic DL info, but also says something like "Carry Permit:" then No or Yes.

If that checkbox is in the public portion of a police report, they are breaking the law, as I'm sure you know.

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Is this information available to police officers in Minnesota on their MDTs (mobile data terminals) in their squad cars? Or, is it something the dispatch radio operator would have to inform them?

As far as we've been able to determine, it's not on the MDT. It is, however, available over the radio from the dispatcher.

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 Post subject: Re: Shreveport Citizens Disarmed By Police For 2A Bumper sticker
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:14 am 
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tcglaw wrote:
Is this information available to police officers in Minnesota on their MDTs (mobile data terminals) in their squad cars? Or, is it something the dispatch radio operator would have to inform them?

When they run your license or plates, no it does not come up. I know a few instructors that have personally checked this out, as myself, and the info does not come back, but can be requested. I was told that all Minnesota departments access the same system, the exception may be the Capital Police.

Maybe some LEO's here would like to comment.


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 Post subject: Re: Shreveport Citizens Disarmed By Police For 2A Bumper sticker
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:44 am 
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a check of your driving record in MN will return your driving record. It will also show outstanding warrants in all 50 states, immigration wants, and Order for Protection info. A check will also show convictions for which your driving priviledges were affected, such as Motor Vehicle Theft.

MN permit to carry info is not provided in a check of a driver's license or vehicle registration.

some people are confused - including LEO's probably - because a D.L. check will show if you have completed MN DNR firearms safety.

The firearms safety entry looks like this:
FIREARMS: Y
or
FIREARMS: N

IANALBIAAC (I am not a lawyer, but ...)

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 Post subject: Re: Shreveport Citizens Disarmed By Police For 2A Bumper sticker
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:56 am 
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It's my understanding that the permit information is supposed to be linked to vehicle registration, but not driver's license records. Run the plates and it might tell if the vehicle owner has a permit.

I doubt if this was ever well thought out, it's probably in the law because some legislators asked for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Shreveport Citizens Disarmed By Police For 2A Bumper sticker
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:44 pm 
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Dick Unger wrote:
It's my understanding that the permit information is supposed to be linked to vehicle registration, but not driver's license records. Run the plates and it might tell if the vehicle owner has a permit.


Nope!

I know there is printed information out there that says it does, but it is wrong. Do like I and some other instructors have done, ask a LEO to run your vehicle plates and see what comes back. I ask for this to be done on my vehicle registration, telling the LEO that I would explain why after my information came back. The LEO just smiled and asked if I had any outstanding warrants. My response was more of a question, asking if some are that stupid? The reply I got was, yes some are. I read my information right off the screen in the squad and there was nothing about me having a permit to carry at all. I explained to the LEO why I requested the info and it was explained to me that the permit info does not come back when they run the vehicle plates, but that information could be requested.


I have also had my driver license run, still no permit information came back.


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 Post subject: Re: Shreveport Citizens Disarmed By Police For 2A Bumper sticker
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:25 pm 
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ok - so I have not yet taken any classes although I am registered for a Basic Pistol class next month since I have only ever shot a pistol 1 time so my response is based only on reading books / articles mostly written by Massad Ayoob and the people he podcasts with.

I read The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry today (it was interesting and I recommend it) and it basically recommended that the best way to ID yourself is to hand over your permit with your license. Then the police officer knows but you haven't said the gun word which apparently can freak people out.

He also says to give them your gun if they ask for it because they do have the legal right to custody of your gun while the stop is underway and that it really isn't the time for you to go all 2nd Amendment on them. Also, you do not want to be seen as a person non-compliant with lawful commands who is also armed.

And third, handing over your gun in the holster if possible is apparently the safest way to do it. But if that isn't going to work telling them where it is and asking what exactly they want you to do seems the way to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Shreveport Citizens Disarmed By Police For 2A Bumper sticker
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:45 pm 
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Nixie wrote:
ok - so I have not yet taken any classes although I am registered for a Basic Pistol class next month since I have only ever shot a pistol 1 time so my response is based only on reading books / articles mostly written by Massad Ayoob and the people he podcasts with.

I read The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry today (it was interesting and I recommend it) and it basically recommended that the best way to ID yourself is to hand over your permit with your license. Then the police officer knows but you haven't said the gun word which apparently can freak people out.

He also says to give them your gun if they ask for it because they do have the legal right to custody of your gun while the stop is underway and that it really isn't the time for you to go all 2nd Amendment on them. Also, you do not want to be seen as a person non-compliant with lawful commands who is also armed.

And third, handing over your gun in the holster if possible is apparently the safest way to do it. But if that isn't going to work telling them where it is and asking what exactly they want you to do seems the way to go.


You could do worse than to read Ayoob's writings. He's a LEO, but he usually has his head on straight.

You could take my carry class (hint hint :wink: ) and get the expanded version of this, but I'll give you the brief rundown here. To be fair, any competent instructor should give you similar information in a carry class, not just me. 8)

Remember that in MN, you do not have to volunteer that you have a carry permit unless you are asked by a LEO (in which case you absolutely have to tell them).

When it comes to routine police interactions, including traffic stops, it's really your choice whether or not to tell them. I base my decision on whether I'm carrying openly or concealed (if they're going to see it, I hand over my permit immediately), and if I am carrying concealed, I add in my personal knowledge of the department. Some departments have reputations for being more "carry-friendly" than others.

If you make the decision to tell the officer, DON'T say the word "gun". That's solid advice.

If the officer wants to secure your weapon during a stop, COMPLY, COMPLY, COMPLY. Do not refuse to give the officer your gun. You won't like where things go if you decide he / she doesn't have the right to secure it. Don't play roadside lawyer.

And yes, if you can easily remove the entire holster (e.g. snap holster), it is a great idea to say, "Officer, if you'll just undo those two snaps you'll find the entire holster will come off my belt. That way the firearm can stay holstered while you secure it, and it's safer for both of us."

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Shreveport Citizens Disarmed By Police For 2A Bumper sticker
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:29 am 
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mrokern wrote:
And yes, if you can easily remove the entire holster (e.g. snap holster), it is a great idea to say, "Officer, if you'll just undo those two snaps you'll find the entire holster will come off my belt. That way the firearm can stay holstered while you secure it, and it's safer for both of us."

For the heck of it......

I carry my 1911A1 in a Blackhawk Serpa holster and run my belt through the loops (it came with the paddle and loop so I can use either, but feel it's more secure with the loop option).

If an officer asks for my weapon, how would you recommend giving it to him/her upon their request?

Tell them where it's at and let them retrieve it from the holster?

Or me (after explaining what I'm about to do, very slowly & deliberately), removing it and placing it on the hood/trunk lid?

Or me undoing my belt and sliding the holster (with weapon still in it), off the belt and handing it to him/her?

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The only downfall to a 1911A1, is actually a plus: You can have it your way, and can put an unreal amount of money into em'.

Squeeze trigger, BANG, repeat. Kind of boring, but I never cared for drama.


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 Post subject: Re: Shreveport Citizens Disarmed By Police For 2A Bumper sticker
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:26 am 
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Hunter07 wrote:
mrokern wrote:
And yes, if you can easily remove the entire holster (e.g. snap holster), it is a great idea to say, "Officer, if you'll just undo those two snaps you'll find the entire holster will come off my belt. That way the firearm can stay holstered while you secure it, and it's safer for both of us."

For the heck of it......

I carry my 1911A1 in a Blackhawk Serpa holster and run my belt through the loops (it came with the paddle and loop so I can use either, but feel it's more secure with the loop option).

If an officer asks for my weapon, how would you recommend giving it to him/her upon their request?

Tell them where it's at and let them retrieve it from the holster?

Or me (after explaining what I'm about to do, very slowly & deliberately), removing it and placing it on the hood/trunk lid?

Or me undoing my belt and sliding the holster (with weapon still in it), off the belt and handing it to him/her?


I'll admit, all the options stink. The SAFEST thing for the officer, in reality, is to just leave your gun right where it is.

If you refuse, however, the officer is going to view you as a threat, so that's no good...

Especially with a 1911 (I've thought about this while carrying mine), I'd be very nervous. At least with a Glock you have a reasonable chance that the officer would be able to clear it safely, but with a 1911 (shudder).

I wouldn't put a hand anywhere near it without the officer's permission. I would, however, offer the officer choices. "Would you prefer to remove it, or would you like me to remove it and set it on the hood for you?" I also don't think it would be out of order to say, "Officer, could you PLEASE not point my gun at me while clearing it?"

I have to admit, EVERY interaction I've had thus far has consisted of the officer saying, "Just don't put your hand on it, and it'll be fine...", and leaving it in place on my belt.

Recorders are your friend. And yes, I'd be filing complaint after complaint with the department if an officer pointed my own gun at me

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Shreveport Citizens Disarmed By Police For 2A Bumper sticker
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:04 pm 
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mrokern wrote:
Remember that in MN, you do not have to volunteer that you have a carry permit unless you are asked by a LEO (in which case you absolutely have to tell them).


Are you sure? I was under the impression that you have to tell them whether you're currently carrying, not whether you possess a permit; it's not like a small piece of cardboard is much of a threat (and the one with a lawyer's phone number is a much bigger threat anyway).


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 Post subject: Re: Shreveport Citizens Disarmed By Police For 2A Bumper sticker
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:13 pm 
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SethB wrote:
mrokern wrote:
Remember that in MN, you do not have to volunteer that you have a carry permit unless you are asked by a LEO (in which case you absolutely have to tell them).


Are you sure? I was under the impression that you have to tell them whether you're currently carrying, not whether you possess a permit; it's not like a small piece of cardboard is much of a threat (and the one with a lawyer's phone number is a much bigger threat anyway).


Yup, not that there is much of a penalty:

MN 624.714 wrote:
Subd. 1b. Display of permit; penalty. (a) The holder of a permit to carry must have the
permit card and a driver's license, state identification card, or other government-issued photo
identification in immediate possession at all times when carrying a pistol and must display the
permit card and identification document upon lawful demand by a peace officer, as defined in
section 626.84, subdivision 1. A violation of this paragraph is a petty misdemeanor. The fine for a
first offense must not exceed $25. Notwithstanding section 609.531, a firearm carried in violation
of this paragraph is not subject to forfeiture.


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 Post subject: Re: Shreveport Citizens Disarmed By Police For 2A Bumper sticker
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:35 pm 
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Yep - and I think it bears repeating and clarification in my non-professional legal opinion: I would not tell/show them you have a permit if you are not carrying.

I know one guy who went through the wringer with a suburban PD when he volunteered that he had a permit even though he wasn't carrying at the time.

If you are not carrying and are asked, I would respond "No, I am not carrying a gun" in a rather astonished and maybe even a little insulted manner.

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 Post subject: Re: Shreveport Citizens Disarmed By Police For 2A Bumper sticker
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:27 pm 
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tman065 wrote:
The firearms safety entry looks like this:
FIREARMS: Y
or
FIREARMS: N


I believe this was changed awhile back to: "DNR FIREARMS: Y" if you've taken the DNR hunter safety course. The DNR was added after the permit to carry law passed due to confusion if it indicated a carry permit.


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