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 RUGER LCP VS KEL-TEC P3AT 
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 Post subject: Re: RUGER LCP VS KEL-TEC P3AT
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:14 pm 
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I spent some time over the past few days learning more about the mag catch issue on the LCP so that I could preventively repair the two LCPs I have access to. Figured some of you could use the information as well so here goes.

It appears the problem has only really reared its head in the post-recall time-period guns. This seems to be because at some point in the past year, Mecgar, the company that makes Ruger's mags, changed the follower design. The initial mags had a slimmer follower with the right side (the side where the catch hole on the mag body is) almost completely open. The new followers are a little thicker and have solid walls on both sides. Because the thicker new follower is a tighter fit inside the mag body, the follower actually rubs the mag catch tooth, pushing it outward so far that it drops the magazine. This problem is worse for mag catches that are worn to begin with as their tooth holding the mag isn't very big to start. Folks seem to complain that the problem is most prevalent in the mags with the extended finger floorplate, but the problem exists for all mags with the bigger/newer follower. The finger floorplate may contribute to the problem because the shooter's hand is pushing the mag back/downward when the new follower slides by the catch, thereby increase the chance the mag will drop if the catch is worn and/or pressed by the follower. (Note that Ruger sent one new finger extension magazine to each person who had a recalled gun fixed by Ruger, to make up for the hassle of the recall. I got my recalled guns back in December 2008 and each came with a new mag that included the new, thicker follower.)

Rumor has it that Ruger's current product of LCPs and some of the latest recall-repaired ones have metal mag catches in them. Ruger is selling metal mag catches now as well. They are $8.00 a piece (before shipping). Part number is 02610 (note that the older, plastic mag catch was part number 02600). Rumor also seems to indicate that Ruger has beefed up the mag catch spring so it's more difficult for the follower to bump it open as the follower passes the catch's tooth. Some of the later recall-repaired models have the stronger spring, but I can't find information saying which ones or when Ruger started adding that to the recall repairs.

As for DIY fixes beyond replacing the plastic catch for a metal one and adding the new stronger spring, users are recommending that the side of the new follower be slightly carved out to allow it to slide past the tooth of the mag catch. One person measured it and estimates he took off about 20 thousandths from the small section on the side of the follower that the catch tooth slides against. If you take an empty magazine body and insert it into your gun with the slide off so you can see down into the empty mag body where the catch tooth points into the magazine, and then you slowly slide the follower up into the mag body and watch it when it gets to the catch tooth, you will see that it gets hung up on the tooth. This will show you exactly where on the follower you will want to sand/file. I used a dremel to gently remove material at that location trial and error until the follower slid freely up and down inside the magazine regardless of the angle of the magazine body in the gun (the mags on the LCP seem to have some slop when in the gun but it's not enough to allow the new follower to slip by the catch tooth without notching out the follower). Another DIY fix is that people have ordered followers from Keltec for use in P3AT mags and are swapping the new Ruger follower with those. The KT followers are slimmer, like the earlier Ruger followers were.

And just to be complete, as for the Keltec magazine drop issue, there are reports of those but it's fairly minimal. The plastic tooth on the catch eventually will be worn down so that it doesn't engage the mag body. Keltec does not sell a metal mag catch, but I think there are aftermarket ones available at the KT forums. I believe that KT charges .50 (including shipping) for replacement plastic mag catches.

If one doesn't ram the magazine into either the KT or the LCP, which does nothing but prematurely wear the plastic catch's tooth, there's probably a lot of life in the plastic catch for both guns. Pressing the mag button to load the magazine will help increase its life as well. Regardless, I think this is yet another area where the KT beats out the Ruger. When a KT drops a mag, its because of visible wear on a plastic part that costs you .50 to replace. Parts wear out and screws fall out all the time -- it's an imperfect world. I can live with that. The Ruger problem is primarily caused by the improperly designed new follower, which I assume Ruger/Mecgar will fix eventually. KT went through plenty of growing pains over the years, and although some would say that Ruger is just experiencing the same thing, there seems to be much more of a "rush to market" cause with the Ruger line.

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 Post subject: Re: RUGER LCP VS KEL-TEC P3AT
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:32 pm 
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I also wanted to make a comment on the KT's hammer block. The main reason that Ruger says it recalled the LCP was because there were reports of the gun firing when dropped. Ruger apparently redesigned the hammer block. It's a small metal piece that catches the hammer when the gun is cocked.

Keltec has a new hammer block available too. I don't believe KT has admitted that the block needs to be replaced due to ADs, and I'm not aware of reports of KT's being dropped and AD'ing (although I suppose someone has alleged that somewhere). Regardless, the new hammer block -- which happens to be the same part for both the P3AT and the PF9 -- will "fix" the "problem" if you want to have it "fixed."

People are replacing hammer blocks for another reason though. That is that some guys forget and try to short-stroke their P3AT -- like, e.g., you can do with a glock. That is, as you let the trigger out, when you feel the first "click," you pull the trigger back again to fire. You can't do that with a P3AT or an LCP. You have to allow the trigger to move to its forward most reset point to refire the guns. However, on the P3AT, if you pull the trigger after the first click, the trigger will move backwards. The hammer doesn't fully cock or fall. The improved hammer block won't let the trigger be pulled back after this first reset-click on either the P3AT or the LCP. The trigger is just locked and doesn't move if you try to pull it after the first click. To determine whether you have the new or old hammer block in your KT, you may (safely) pull the trigger after this first click to see if it moves backward or is firm.

If you are interested and like to DIY, I believe KT sells the new designed hammer block for around $7.00. Instructions for replacement are on the KT forums. I have to believe that KT would replace it for you if you asked as well, but I'm not aware of folks going that route.

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 Post subject: Re: RUGER LCP VS KEL-TEC P3AT
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:08 pm 
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What a bummer. At a time when it's very hard to find 380 ammo for full function and reliability testing...

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 Post subject: Re: RUGER LCP VS KEL-TEC P3AT
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:35 pm 
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Ruger will replace your plastic mag catch with a metal one, you just have to wait for its return. I had mine replaced by a guy that was making the metal ones for the LCP before Ruger announced they were stocking them. Ruger is selling them for less than what this guy could make them for so he quit building them.

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 Post subject: Re: RUGER LCP VS KEL-TEC P3AT
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:31 pm 
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Just a quick update regarding repairing these guns. Since I last posted above, my parts came from both KT and Ruger. I replaced the hammer block on my KT so it's now as safe as the Ruger from ADs if dropped (assuming that problem ever really existed). Had to remove the frame from the plastic grip to do this. Not a difficult job. While apart, I replaced the plastic mag catch with another factory plastic one as mine was a little worn but I never experienced a mag drop. Replaced the mag catch spring too since KT sent it for free with the .50 mag catch I paid for.

As for the Ruger, I got the metal mag catch and new spring. Had to remove the frame from the Ruger to get to the catch and spring. Pretty much the same job as removing the frame from the KT. The hammer spring is more difficult to remove and install on the bottom of the grip on the Ruger by far though due to the Ruger having a plastic cap that is not part of the hammer spring / pin assembly. The metal mag catches are nice. Replaced it and its spring in the same manner as the KT replacement. I then moved on to replacing the Ruger's extractor. I ordered the extractor due to reports that Ruger was replacing them with "beefier" ones on the more recent hammer block recall fixes. The extractors I got are definitely different than the old one. The old one has more of a sharp point on it. The new ones have that point dulled out some. Looks almost like it has already been worn. I checked on line and others are reporting this new design as well. (I ordered two new ones and they were identical.) I wonder if this new design isn't simply another way Ruger is trying to save case rims from damage. The Ruger's extractor is held in place with a spring and small detent. There's a tiny hold behind the extractor that you push a small pick into and then press the detent backward to take pressure off the extractor, after which it will fall out of the slide when you tip it to the side. That spring proved itself to be quite forceful though. Taking the old extractor out should be done inside a plastic bag so the detent doesn't fly to nowhere land on you. Because I wanted to clean out the hole where the spring and detent reside, I pulled the small parts out of the slide. It would have been much easier to just use the pick to press back on the detent, drop out the old extractor, drop in the new extractor, and then release the detent without having taken the detent completely out of the gun. To get the parts back into place, I ended up having to use a wooden chopstick to push the detent and spring back into place so I could insert the pick into the tiny hole to hold the parts there, and then with my third hand I dropped the new extractor into place before removing the pick so the detent would press against and hold in place the new extractor. Hard to do all of this in a plastic bag so work somewhere where you'll find small parts if one goes flying on you.

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 Post subject: Re: RUGER LCP VS KEL-TEC P3AT
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:08 pm 
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In the end, I carry my P3AT every day and my LCP needs to back to Ruger. :bang:

Needless to say, I trust my P3AT and won't be carrying my LCP. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: RUGER LCP VS KEL-TEC P3AT
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:40 am 
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After finding out that the ruger recall only effects the 370-xxxxx numbers i found one with the 371-xxxxx number which is supposed to have all the upgrades from what ruger says on their website. Paid $299.99 I called alot of gunshops and hutchinson was the cheapest, very nice people over there they also threw in a free blackhawk pocket holster. I got it home and put 200 rounds through it without missing a beat. :D


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 Post subject: Re: RUGER LCP VS KEL-TEC P3AT
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:39 pm 
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rimshot wrote:
After finding out that the ruger recall only effects the 370-xxxxx numbers i found one with the 371-xxxxx number which is supposed to have all the upgrades from what ruger says on their website. Paid $299.99 I called alot of gunshops and hutchinson was the cheapest, very nice people over there they also threw in a free blackhawk pocket holster. I got it home and put 200 rounds through it without missing a beat. :D

Congrats on the new piece!! Now put a Crimson trace laser,nitesiters and a Pearce grip extension and you'll be good to go. :D :D :D

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 Post subject: Re: RUGER LCP VS KEL-TEC P3AT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:14 am 
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Congrats on the new piece!! Now put a Crimson trace laser,nitesiters and a Pearce grip extension and you'll be good to go. :D :D :D[/quote]

I ordered 2 pearce grips and an extra mag just minutes after firing it! Do you have any recomendtions for nightsights


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 Post subject: Re: RUGER LCP VS KEL-TEC P3AT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:06 pm 
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rimshot wrote:
Congrats on the new piece!! Now put a Crimson trace laser,nitesiters and a Pearce grip extension and you'll be good to go. :D :D :D


I ordered 2 pearce grips and an extra mag just minutes after firing it! Do you have any recomendtions for nightsights[/quote]

I don't believe anyone makes true night sights for the LCP but I put these on mine and they make a huge difference in picking up the sights during the day. They need to be charged with light in order to glow at night. They don't hold the light charge for a long period of time so I wouldn't buy them in the hope of having true night sights.
http://www.nitesiters.com/

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