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 Teaching a Handgun Class to Soldiers on Common Malfunctions 
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 Post subject: Teaching a Handgun Class to Soldiers on Common Malfunctions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:24 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:04 am
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Location: Lakeville MN
We had a Soldier that had an AD with a M249 SAW. Since this happened we have had to teach classes on the 3 Army weapon systems, M4, M9 Berretta, and The M249SAW.WE have been being taught the same classes every 3 weeks repeating the only thing changing being the SPC that has been teaching them. Well we had a range day here in Iraq that was basically a play day to get the younger soldiers in my section more time on the 3 weapons systems. I work on a helpdesk and most of the guys that work on my desk with me have little to know weapon experience outside of the Army. At the range day when the younger soldiers were shooting the M9 Beretta's they were having a lot of FTEs (failure to eject), while this was happening I was watching these soldiers (enlisted and Officers) and they were limp wristing the pistols causing the Malfunctions. I then took the pistol that was "the problem pistol" and fired two consecutive 15 round Magazines through this pistol with ZERO malfunctions. I then handed it off to a soldier who had a FTE about every 3rd round.
So my goal with this class is to teach the soldiers in my section a better understanding in how a pistol works, what are common malfunctions and how to prevent them. So my question is do any of you have Course material or videos I could use for this project/class of mine. I will list your info at the end of my slide show along with contact info as a few of my helpdesk crew would like to take their permit to carry course when we get home.

My course is set to be taught next Sunday and would like to have the class done by Friday.

And Thanks for any help you can or will provide.
SPC O'Daniel
Basrah, Iraq
34th ID


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 Post subject: Re: Teaching a Handgun Class to Soldiers on Common Malfunctions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:48 pm 
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I go right out of the NRA Basic Pistol curriculum, so I don't really have much of my own design in way of materials. There is a great video done by Todd Jarrett that discusses how to grip the gun, but he doesn't cover limp wristing.

That said, limp wristing should be a quick and easy discussion, especially if you provide your soldiers with the comparison of a rifle's stock. With a rifle, you have a stock built into the weapon. With a pistol, your arms must act as the stock. A rifle stock doesn't go loose at any point, nor should your arms/wrists

If you are teaching combat shooting, it would behoove you to focus on the isosceles stance. IMHO, it is the simplest stance for most inexperienced students to grasp, is very quick to get into, and is what most people will revert to during an actual incident anyways.

I used to shooting using a modified weaver, and then I saw the light. 8)

Grip video:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82516

-Mark

ETA - Thank you for your service.


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 Post subject: Re: Teaching a Handgun Class to Soldiers on Common Malfunctions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:13 pm 
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go into Reimer and download a copy of FM 3-23.25.

Which unit you with in the 34th ID?

SOMEONE there should know what to do. This should have been addressed at your mob site before you even left state-side. But that really doesn't surprise me.

Things that I saw most frequently...

Weapons OVER lubricated. Collect dust and dirt and gum up the slides/bolts. If you can see your fingerprints after you reassemble, you have too much lube.

Limp wristing - you're already figuring this one out.

In the meantime, go find a couple infantry guys and get them to teach you weapons classes. True 11 Boo-boo grunts. Even better, go find some scouts in a mech infantry unit....

May also have some luck with http://www.armystudyguide.com/ There used to be some powerpoint shows there.

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/S ... asks.shtml

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching a Handgun Class to Soldiers on Common Malfunctions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:52 pm 
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farmerj wrote:
go into Reimer and download a copy of FM 3-23.25.

Which unit you with in the 34th ID?

SOMEONE there should know what to do. This should have been addressed at your mob site before you even left state-side. But that really doesn't surprise me.

Things that I saw most frequently...

Weapons OVER lubricated. Collect dust and dirt and gum up the slides/bolts. If you can see your fingerprints after you reassemble, you have too much lube.

Limp wristing - you're already figuring this one out.

In the meantime, go find a couple infantry guys and get them to teach you weapons classes. True 11 Boo-boo grunts. Even better, go find some scouts in a mech infantry unit....

May also have some luck with http://www.armystudyguide.com/ There used to be some powerpoint shows there.

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/S ... asks.shtml


Problem is that most of the infantry guys I've met these days admit that they have almost zero trigger time on pistols. You might be better off finding MPs, or another MOS that spends a decent amount of time working with handguns.

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Teaching a Handgun Class to Soldiers on Common Malfunctions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:10 pm 
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I would second the MP.

I spent 14 years in 2/136 in MN.

I retired an MP E6 in Fargo with the 191 MP Co. MP's know all of those weapons inside out. Or at least should.

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching a Handgun Class to Soldiers on Common Malfunctions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:26 am 
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If you can get a copy, Mike Conti's new book "The Officer's Guide to Police Pistolcraft" is an excellent resource.

Despite the fact that they are expected to carry pistols, it has been my experience that most MPs are not very well trained on how to use them. It's not their fault, it's the Army. I'd estimate the Army is (at least, when I was in) about 20 years behind the rest of the world when it comes to pistol marksmanship training.

There are maverick exceptions to the rule throughout the service, but they are few and far between, and constantly swimming upstream.

If you have the oppotunity to bring your troop's training into the 21st century, I say go for it!


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 Post subject: Re: Teaching a Handgun Class to Soldiers on Common Malfunctions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:51 am 
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Erik_Pakieser wrote:
If you can get a copy, Mike Conti's new book "The Officer's Guide to Police Pistolcraft" is an excellent resource.

Despite the fact that they are expected to carry pistols, it has been my experience that most MPs are not very well trained on how to use them. It's not their fault, it's the Army. I'd estimate the Army is (at least, when I was in) about 20 years behind the rest of the world when it comes to pistol marksmanship training.

There are maverick exceptions to the rule throughout the service, but they are few and far between, and constantly swimming upstream.

If you have the oppotunity to bring your troop's training into the 21st century, I say go for it!


If ScottA is lurking around here, he should chime in...I believe he did some pistol instruction back in his active duty days.

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Teaching a Handgun Class to Soldiers on Common Malfunctions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:50 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:04 am
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Location: Lakeville MN
I realize the Army has some very good training materials available and trust me I will use some of theirs. But like what is stated above the Army is way behind the 8 ball when it comes to up to date training. I would like to teach a more modern weapons class. Hence why I am asking you for help not digging through Army Study guides.

and on the MP comment most of the MP's that are here have no civilian weapons experience and I would be willing to bet that I have more rounds through a handgun than most of these guys have ever thought about putting through a handgun. I respect their opinion on some topics but others not so much as they go by Army standard and refuse to realize alot of the crap they were taught 10 years ago has been changed 15 years ago on the civilian side because their is a better way. Case in point my dad is a Retired MP Major (with 34 years in service) He may KNow alot of the basics but he is not up to date on the subject as he doesn't pick up in recent literature. He is the same way with cars. Has immense knowledge on the subject... if you are talking 80's and earlier technology. I have learned alot from my dad but I have also had help from others. Like Don on here (the one that works/helps at Burnsville Pistol Range) He was watching me get my wife into shooting one day and came out and gave her some advice and now she shoots better than I do. And because she has gotten good she loves to shoot.

My point with this statement is I want current instructional help not "Train to standards" Suggestions if I wanted that I wouldn't have asked people that shoot on the civilian side and teach weapons classes on the civilian side.


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 Post subject: Re: Teaching a Handgun Class to Soldiers on Common Malfunctions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:30 pm 
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The issue you will have bringing training into the Army is with your commanders. If it's not in the ARTEP's or the FM's, they won't support it. As it is, most are likely to give limited qualification time and resources to weapons qualification. It's not seen as a priority compared with retention and PT scores.

Your best bet to get GOOD resources for training and time is to talk with the CSM or 1SG and get them on YOUR side. Without it, your sunk. If they don't support your wishes to bring in training material from outside the army sources, forget it.

I hate to shed a dark cloud on an obviously wonderful idea, but with big green, that's the way it is.

My last duty position was the Marksmanship training coordinator for my MP unit before I retired. I even went so far as to get permission and support from my unit commander and 1SG to take a defensive handgun course from a civilian instructor. While THEY enjoyed it, once battalion caught wind of it, Game over. No longer allowed to use the training material. Try to teach the material on an Army training range. Forget it. Post range personnel had us done before we began.

I was also a MN Permit instructor working with Phorvick, Utah Concealed weapons instructor and an NRA PPITH and PPOTH instructor with Ttousi.

I didn't just crawl out from underneath a turnip patch here.

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching a Handgun Class to Soldiers on Common Malfunctions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:29 pm 
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farmerj is correct, if it's not official doctrine, it's very hard to put into practice in the Army. I got around that by serving on the Guard's state pistol team, which allowed me some credibility with my commander, and in turn allowed me to do some training outside the box.

Again, if you have the opportunity to do this, run with it. An opportunity lost may never be regained.

Also, don't forget that while your live fire range time may be limited, there is a lot of "hip-pocket" downtime where you can draw some empty weapons to practice grip, stance, and dry-fire trigger control. Get ahold of some cheap dummy rounds and you can even practice loading, unloading, and clearing stoppages.

Don't let the Army doctrine keep you from doing what it takes to keep your soldiers alive. Just be careful and don't break any rules :)


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 Post subject: Re: Teaching a Handgun Class to Soldiers on Common Malfunctions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:39 pm 
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I am not teaching this to anyone outside of my section. and i will not be crossing any Army Boundaries. The stuff i am teaching is pure educational. We will be doing another range day and I don't want to see my section failing at shooting a weapon that may become their primary weapon some day due to the fact that no one tried to help them. My Section SGT feeds them misguided info and I would lik eto correct this. When you see someone stovepipe a firearm after every round would you just stand there and watch or would you ask that person if you can give them a pointer? All I am trying to do is give pointers based on my experience and give these young soldiers a chance to have a good time at the range. I also want to teach them that not every weapons malfunctions is do to the piece of equipment but most can be linked back to the shooter himself.


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 Post subject: Re: Teaching a Handgun Class to Soldiers on Common Malfunctions
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:11 am 
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Location: St Paul
Same problem in Navy.
Gotta teach the Navy course. Hard to get around established policy like that.
BUT... possibly if you teach "dummy gun" tactics. I have been able (with proof of instructorship and Chiefs approval)
to teach skills. Just not live fire. Use the Red Guns in any class room and impart the concepts.

For personal study, I would HIGHLY suggest the DVD/book "Point Shooting Progressions".
Great material from Suarez International.

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Brent Fox

Fox Defensive Training & Pistol Craft Inc.


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