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 4 Police Officers, Suspect Shot in Search for Drugs 
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 Post subject: 4 Police Officers, Suspect Shot in Search for Drugs
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:44 pm 
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4 Police Officers, Suspect Shot in Search for Drugs and Weapons at N.J. Home
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,554808,00.html?test=latestnews
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4 Police Officers, Suspect Shot in Search for Drugs and Weapons at N.J. Home
Thursday, September 24, 2009
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LAKEWOOD, N.J. — Four New Jersey cops and a suspect were shot early Thursday during a gunbattle that broke out while officers were trying to search a home for drugs and weapons.

A gunman opened fire early Thursday on a SWAT team that burst into a home in suburban Lakewood during a drug and gun raid, authorities said.

Four officers were wounded — one critically — when the suspect sprayed bullets from atop a staircase.

Lakewood Patrolman Jonathan Wilson was shot in the face during the raid, and was in critical but stable condition at a local hospital. Authorities said they were optimistic he would survive despite being grievously wounded.

"He is in good spirits, and he's communicating," said Ocean County Prosecutor Marlene Lynch Ford.

Authorities said Wilson is in danger of losing an eye from the gunshot wound. Wilson is a six-year veteran of the force who is married with four children, including a newborn.

Police Chief Robert Lawson said the officer was shot in the forehead. But because the bullet was fired at a downward angle, it did not penetrate his skull, instead exiting through the side of his face.


Lt. Greg Meyer was shot in the foot, and was in good condition at the hospital following surgery for bone injuries.

Two other Lakewood officers, Sgt. Louis Sasso and Patrolman Leonard Nieves Sr. were shot in their specially reinforced bulletproof vests, sustaining only minor injuries despite being struck in the chest. They were treated and released from the hospital.

The suspect, Jamie Gonzalez, 39, was in critical condition after suffering numerous gunshot wounds as police returned fire, Ford said.

He was charged with four counts of attempted murder, as well illegal weapons possession and receiving stolen property. The .357 Magnum used to shoot the officers was reported stolen from South Carolina, Ford said.

Gonzalez was to be held on $2 million bail once released from the hospital.

A second man who was inside the house when the shooting erupted also was in custody, but had not been charged as of mid-day Thursday. First Assistant Prosecutor Ronald DeLigny said it does not appear the second person was involved in the shooting, but may be implicated in the underlying guns and drugs case that brought the multi-agency task force to the house in the first place.

At 2:25 a.m., the task force consisting of officers from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, New Jersey State Police, the Ocean County Prosecutor's Office and Lakewood police executed a "no-knock" search warrant at the single family split-level home.

They knocked down the door with a battering ram, entered a mid-level landing and were heading upstairs when Gonzalez opened fire on them from atop a staircase, striking the four officers, authorities said.

Police returned fire and shot Gonzalez several times. It was not immediately clear how many shots were fired.

Authorities were still searching the house Thursday for evidence in the shooting case, as well as the gun and drugs case. Ford would not say whether any drugs or additional weapons were found inside.

She would not characterize the underlying drug and weapons case other than to say it was "big enough to attract the attention of the task force."

Neighbors said they had noticed numerous cars pulling up to the house then quickly leaving after the occupants entered and left the house.

"It's not the same world it used to be, people killing each other all the time," said neighbor Robin Kumar. "Police are here to protect us; why would you do such a thing?"

The shooting comes more than two months after Jersey City police Det. Marc DiNardo was shot in the face storming an apartment where two armed robbery suspects were holed up. Four other officers were wounded in the gun battle and the suspects were killed.

DiNardo was taken off life support and pronounced dead one day before his 38th birthday.

Lakewood was once known as the resort in the pines for wealthy New Yorkers in the 1800s and early 1900s. The Rockefellers and Goulds built mansions there. The township has a large Orthodox Jewish population and has one of the largest yeshivas in the world, Beth Medrash Govoha.

In recent decades, the population has become more mixed. Some sections of Lakewood have been plagued by troubles with drugs and gangs.


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 Post subject: Re: 4 Police Officers, Suspect Shot in Search for Drugs
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:46 am 
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OK... time for me to stir the pot a bit.

I, in general, like police officers & what they do. I wanted to be one a long time ago. That being said, we all know the "spin" that many officers & departments are capable of, much less any reporter.

While I understand the need for such an entry (the "no knock" variety as reported), are we sure that the police were already in the house, approaching the landing of the stairway before they were shot at?

I know at my home, while I have no such need to expect any kind of a no knock warrant, if my front door were suddenly bashed down by a battering ram, there would be many shots fired long before I heard the words "POLICE...SEARCH WARRANT".

So what do you suppose actually happened here? Were the shot fired before the announcement? Sounds like a clear case of self defense on the attempted murder charges to me.

Maybe the police across our fine land should reconsider the entire "no knock" program.


MM


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 Post subject: Re: 4 Police Officers, Suspect Shot in Search for Drugs
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:16 am 
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a911scanner wrote:
OK... time for me to stir the pot a bit.

I, in general, like police officers & what they do. I wanted to be one a long time ago. That being said, we all know the "spin" that many officers & departments are capable of, much less any reporter.

While I understand the need for such an entry (the "no knock" variety as reported), are we sure that the police were already in the house, approaching the landing of the stairway before they were shot at?

I know at my home, while I have no such need to expect any kind of a no knock warrant, if my front door were suddenly bashed down by a battering ram, there would be many shots fired long before I heard the words "POLICE...SEARCH WARRANT".

So what do you suppose actually happened here? Were the shot fired before the announcement? Sounds like a clear case of self defense on the attempted murder charges to me.

Maybe the police across our fine land should reconsider the entire "no knock" program.


MM

This drug dealer (neighbors knew it) shot 4 different police officers using a stolen handgun.

You really think he was innocently defending his home?

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 Post subject: Re: 4 Police Officers, Suspect Shot in Search for Drugs
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:50 am 
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a911scanner wrote:
I know at my home, while I have no such need to expect any kind of a no knock warrant, if my front door were suddenly bashed down by a battering ram, there would be many shots fired long before I heard the words "POLICE...SEARCH WARRANT".


And that would be very, very bad for you.

Breaking and entering does not allow you to shoot in MN!

-Mark


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 Post subject: Re: 4 Police Officers, Suspect Shot in Search for Drugs
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:06 pm 
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tman065 wrote:
a911scanner wrote:
OK... time for me to stir the pot a bit.

I, in general, like police officers & what they do. I wanted to be one a long time ago. That being said, we all know the "spin" that many officers & departments are capable of, much less any reporter.

While I understand the need for such an entry (the "no knock" variety as reported), are we sure that the police were already in the house, approaching the landing of the stairway before they were shot at?

I know at my home, while I have no such need to expect any kind of a no knock warrant, if my front door were suddenly bashed down by a battering ram, there would be many shots fired long before I heard the words "POLICE...SEARCH WARRANT".

So what do you suppose actually happened here? Were the shot fired before the announcement? Sounds like a clear case of self defense on the attempted murder charges to me.

Maybe the police across our fine land should reconsider the entire "no knock" program.


MM

This drug dealer (neighbors knew it) shot 4 different police officers using a stolen handgun.

You really think he was innocently defending his home?


No, he wasn't - but all too many (x>0) innocent folks ARE shot in much the same manner, and that's what he's pointing the spotlight at. This was a case where they got the RIGHT house.

The justifications for no-knocks, as I understand them:
1) Secure evidence (So criminals don't flush drugs) - if the amount they have is small enough they can flush them, is it worth the risk?
2) Officer safety - as shown in this case, the no-knock didn't help with officer safety, 4 were shot, 2 are still hospitalized.

Their justifications, while they sounded good when first offered way back when, don't seem to be holding up under the scrutiny of time, and continued horrible execution. (confirmed by innocent dead folk count being > 0)

In this case, if they knew it was only one guy...why not simply knock on the door and have officers watching other exits? The guy isn't going anywhere...heck, keep it low-key enough and he might not even know they're on to him. Smash down his door, he's sure to know they're coming for him, so he's GOING to make a stand. Criminals aren't the brightest, but they know when they're backed into a corner, and that's NEVER a good situation to be in, on ANY side of the fight.


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 Post subject: Re: 4 Police Officers, Suspect Shot in Search for Drugs
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:29 pm 
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tman065 wrote:
a911scanner wrote:
OK... time for me to stir the pot a bit.

I, in general, like police officers & what they do. I wanted to be one a long time ago. That being said, we all know the "spin" that many officers & departments are capable of, much less any reporter.

While I understand the need for such an entry (the "no knock" variety as reported), are we sure that the police were already in the house, approaching the landing of the stairway before they were shot at?

I know at my home, while I have no such need to expect any kind of a no knock warrant, if my front door were suddenly bashed down by a battering ram, there would be many shots fired long before I heard the words "POLICE...SEARCH WARRANT".

So what do you suppose actually happened here? Were the shot fired before the announcement? Sounds like a clear case of self defense on the attempted murder charges to me.

Maybe the police across our fine land should reconsider the entire "no knock" program.


MM

This drug dealer (neighbors knew it) shot 4 different police officers using a stolen handgun.

You really think he was innocently defending his home?

No, but! Regardless if I (or anyone else), is in their own home and the door comes crashing down, it is human nature to go into defense mode.........doing what you can to stop the intruders.

That said, this BG is screwed 6 ways to Sunday. :D

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 Post subject: Re: 4 Police Officers, Suspect Shot in Search for Drugs
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:18 pm 
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mrokern wrote:
a911scanner wrote:
I know at my home, while I have no such need to expect any kind of a no knock warrant, if my front door were suddenly bashed down by a battering ram, there would be many shots fired long before I heard the words "POLICE...SEARCH WARRANT".


And that would be very, very bad for you.

Breaking and entering does not allow you to shoot in MN!

-Mark


What do you mean by the term "really, really bad for you" Mark?

How am I to know the difference if they're intending to commit a felony or not? Isn't Burglary/B&E of an occupied dwelling an automatic felony in this state? Isn't a felony committed in my home while I'm present reason enough to invoke Castle Doctrine?

And, while I do agree that it may be very slippery for me, I don't think it would be 25yrs to life for me when it all gets washed out (with good representation, that is). I would reasonably be in fear for my life when I heard no announcements, door came busting down and the first thing I saw was a gun barrel...

It would, OTOH, be extremely costly and a risk I hope to never have to take, as I don't want to count on a jury of my peers in a state where nothing is allowed.

Again, remembering that I have no reason for a no knock and this is all hypothetical...


MM


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 Post subject: Re: 4 Police Officers, Suspect Shot in Search for Drugs
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:30 pm 
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mrokern wrote:
a911scanner wrote:
I know at my home, while I have no such need to expect any kind of a no knock warrant, if my front door were suddenly bashed down by a battering ram, there would be many shots fired long before I heard the words "POLICE...SEARCH WARRANT".
And that would be very, very bad for you.

Breaking and entering does not allow you to shoot in MN!

If the guys who broke and entered were armed, it's a reasonable belief that they intended murder or gross bodily harm.


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 Post subject: Re: 4 Police Officers, Suspect Shot in Search for Drugs
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:51 pm 
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SethB wrote:
mrokern wrote:
a911scanner wrote:
I know at my home, while I have no such need to expect any kind of a no knock warrant, if my front door were suddenly bashed down by a battering ram, there would be many shots fired long before I heard the words "POLICE...SEARCH WARRANT".
And that would be very, very bad for you.

Breaking and entering does not allow you to shoot in MN!

If the guys who broke and entered were armed, it's a reasonable belief that they intended murder or gross bodily harm.


I think entered is an important word. You cannot shoot at a sound or at just the door falling down. So i would expect and sincerely hope you would see who is entering your home. There is a difference in how the BG will dress and the gear that the police will have on so before you pull the trigger you should be able to decide good guy or not.

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 Post subject: Re: 4 Police Officers, Suspect Shot in Search for Drugs
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:09 pm 
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a911scanner wrote:
Isn't Burglary/B&E of an occupied dwelling an automatic felony in this state?


Unlawful entry is a misdemeanor.


Quote:
(b) A person is guilty of a misdemeanor if the person intentionally:
<...>
(4) occupies or enters the dwelling or locked or posted building of another, without claim of right or consent of the owner or the consent of one who has the right to give consent, except in an emergency situation;


Unlawful with intent to steal may be either a gross misdemeanor or a felony, dependong on the degree.


Quote:
Subd. 3.Burglary in the third degree.

Whoever enters a building without consent and with intent to steal or commit any felony or gross misdemeanor while in the building, or enters a building without consent and steals or commits a felony or gross misdemeanor while in the building, either directly or as an accomplice, commits burglary in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.
Subd. 4.Burglary in the fourth degree.

Whoever enters a building without consent and with intent to commit a misdemeanor other than to steal, or enters a building without consent and commits a misdemeanor other than to steal while in the building, either directly or as an accomplice, commits burglary in the fourth degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than one year or to payment of a fine of not more than $3,000, or both.

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 Post subject: Re: 4 Police Officers, Suspect Shot in Search for Drugs
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:04 pm 
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Thanks Andrew for the reference.

The only problem I have is how we determine whether or not they intend to commit a felony. I don't think I'll take the time to ask.

OTOH, if we had a clear castle doctrine law written for inside and outside the home, maybe we would be covered in a self-defense situation and not be required to make such a determination before letting them know they came to the wrong house today.


MM


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 Post subject: Re: 4 Police Officers, Suspect Shot in Search for Drugs
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:42 am 
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Saunassa wrote:

I think entered is an important word. You cannot shoot at a sound or at just the door falling down. So i would expect and sincerely hope you would see who is entering your home. There is a difference in how the BG will dress and the gear that the police will have on so before you pull the trigger you should be able to decide good guy or not.


It gets harder to differentiate between a good guy and a bad guy after reading a report like this:
kimberman wrote:
...Officials with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said a “unique” unit of federal agents has worked with Phoenix detectives to break the robbery crews, which have included attackers dressed in dark uniforms and masks similar to police tactical units…

http://www.twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=14206

Oh Hey! 500 posts. That was quick.


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 Post subject: Re: 4 Police Officers, Suspect Shot in Search for Drugs
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:04 am 
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Saunassa wrote:
SethB wrote:
mrokern wrote:
a911scanner wrote:
I know at my home, while I have no such need to expect any kind of a no knock warrant, if my front door were suddenly bashed down by a battering ram, there would be many shots fired long before I heard the words "POLICE...SEARCH WARRANT".
And that would be very, very bad for you.

Breaking and entering does not allow you to shoot in MN!

If the guys who broke and entered were armed, it's a reasonable belief that they intended murder or gross bodily harm.


I think entered is an important word. You cannot shoot at a sound or at just the door falling down. So i would expect and sincerely hope you would see who is entering your home. There is a difference in how the BG will dress and the gear that the police will have on so before you pull the trigger you should be able to decide good guy or not.




More than likely they are going to have BRIGHT white lights between you and them (probably attached to things that have bang switches) consequently, unless they are in full dress blue (with fancy piping and white gloves) the folks doing the breaking and entering are likely going to look like dark figures behind very bright lights. Telling if they are good guys or bad guys at the time the fan and poo are connecting . .. . probably isn't going to be easy. Add disorientation and surprise . . .. your intrepid home defender is probably going to get a few rounds off before the trigger finger gets the signal "oh no, they are cops, not murdering gangsters planning to rape me to death in front of my kids" from the brain.

I'd rather they just dropped no knocks as a policy in the playbook and maybe invested more effort in investigation.

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 Post subject: Re: 4 Police Officers, Suspect Shot in Search for Drugs
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:10 am 
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It would be really bad.

Let's take two hypotheticals -- although both things have really happened. In both of them, you are surprised by crashing sounds and some masked men bursting into your home, shouting, guns drawn.

In one case, it's a gang of four robbers, who are pretending to be cops. They intend to rob you, and don't much mind if they kill you in the process.

In the other case, it's another of the wrong house raids -- a la the Khangs. It's cops who are at the wrong address, or have been given bum information and are actually at the address that they have a warrant for; it's just that the info that they were given to get the warrant was bullshit.

In both hypotheticals, you kill three, and wound the other.

In the first, you're probably not in much legal trouble. It won't go to a jury, but, if it did, the jury would conclude that you were both engaging in "defense of dwelling" (you reasonably -- and accurately -- believed that you were resisting the felony of robbery) and self-defense; either one, and you walk.

In the second, you're cooked -- the surviving cop will testify that they clearly announced themselves as police officers serving a warrant (they were, he says, shouting, "Police officers! Warrant!") and who is the jury going to believe?

If you want to draw the conclusion that you're better off, legally, if all four of the intruders are dead, you're wrong, by the way -- in the second hypo, the cops outside the house will testify that they heard the "dynamic entry team" shouting the same thing that the surviving cop would have said (and probably accurately), that he had been shouting.

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 Post subject: Re: 4 Police Officers, Suspect Shot in Search for Drugs
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:13 am 
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Give it a few years, and this chest cam will be standard issue.

This is a police chest cam video of a man experiencing drug-induced excited delirium.

Bluetube Video of ED Incident


*can somebody embed the video? I couldn't figure that out.

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