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 Guarding against nothing, I'd say 
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 Post subject: Guarding against nothing, I'd say
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:09 pm 
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The Colt 1911 Series 80 firing-pin block – whuffo?

This thread was running on another forum a year ago or so, and I thought it might be fun over here.

Anyway, the nominal reason for a firing-pin block such as the one on the Colt Series 80 1911 is to prevent an AD if the gun is dropped on its muzzle with a round in the chamber. Yes?

But an engineer with some skepticism in his soul decided to try this idea out, and came up with the conclusion that the calamity is extremely unlikely to happen. He wrote that he: “. . . clamped the slide in a vice with the rear pointing up. A small drift was placed against the firing pin and Orhaus lab weights were stacked on the firing pin until the spring was compressed sufficiently that the firing pin barely protruded from the bolt face. Then the drift was weighed on an Orhaus triple beam balance and the weight was added to the lab weights weight. Finally the firing pin was weighed on the same balance. Results: Firing pin weight: 4.4 grams Total weight required: 506 grams Computed G force: 506/4.4 = 115 G. . .”

He went on to determine that to actually fire the primer would take a force of about 1,000 Gs

Then he went to a practical test: “. . .An old slide, bushing, barrel and the Gold Cup firing pin and spring were assembled. A case with a live primer was chambered and the whole assembly was duct taped to make sure the barrel stayed in battery. Then the whole assembly was dropped muzzle first down various lengths of pipe onto my asphalt driveway. The pipe guided the assembly and made sure the muzzle remained pointed straight down. The longest pipe I could find was 15 feet long. Several drops from this altitude failed to fire the primer. The primer was marked but not enough to call it a dent. I did one more drop with the firing pin spring removed. The primer was dented pretty severely but it did NOT detonate. I suspect that with several drops, one or more might fire the primer. I got bored and my slide was getting boogered up so I stopped with the one drop. Based on these tests, I feel confident in saying that there just ain't no way dropping a Colt on its muzzle is going to inertially discharge the thing. . .”

Based on his tests – and of course I’m taking them on faith – I’d say the firing-pin block is of legal, rather than real-world, significance. Here’s the link: http://yarchive.net/gun/pistol/1911_ine ... harge.html

Anybody agree, disagree?

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 Post subject: Re: Guarding against nothing, I'd say
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:51 pm 
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Dave Matheny wrote:
The Colt 1911 Series 80 firing-pin block – whuffo?
...
Based on his tests – and of course I’m taking them on faith – I’d say the firing-pin block is of legal, rather than real-world, significance.
...
Anybody agree, disagree?


I totally agree. I have one of each, and IMHO the main function of the firing pin safety is that it prevents any shooting that might have otherwise occurred while you're struggling to get the firing pin block back into the slide, and the slide back onto the frame.

It's one reason I actually like my crappy Filipino Charles Daly 1911 better than my much prettier Kimber.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:24 am 
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I would bet there are many malfunctions, failures to fire, that come from this unnecessary addition. But by now, I suppose, there's no way for Colt to take it away without generating bad publicity.

It also makes detail stripping a serious chore.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:43 am 
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Dave Matheny wrote:
I would bet there are many malfunctions, failures to fire, that come from this unnecessary addition. But by now, I suppose, there's no way for Colt to take it away without generating bad publicity.

It also makes detail stripping a serious chore.


I really don't have any issues with stripping a Colt, I have 2 Defenders that have the Colt firing pin block. But I did have a Kimber Target Elite II that was a real pain to strip because of their Swartz style safety.


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 Post subject: Re: Guarding against nothing, I'd say
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:36 pm 
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Dave Matheny (quoting) wrote:
Then the whole assembly was dropped muzzle first down various lengths of pipe onto my asphalt driveway.
The only issue I have is with the asphalt driveway; it's relatively soft (especially in the summer). Dropping onto something very hard (e.g. slate, or even cement) gives greater instantaneous deceleration and might yield a different result.


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 Post subject: Re: Guarding against nothing, I'd say
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 9:38 am 
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SethB wrote:
Dropping onto something very hard (e.g. slate, or even cement) gives greater instantaneous deceleration and might yield a different result.


Even so, I doubt it would reach 1,000 Gs.

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 Post subject: Re: Guarding against nothing, I'd say
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:14 pm 
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Dave Matheny wrote:
SethB wrote:
Dropping onto something very hard (e.g. slate, or even cement) gives greater instantaneous deceleration and might yield a different result.


Even so, I doubt it would reach 1,000 Gs.


And even if it did, the arrangement required guarantees that the gun's not pointing at anybody.

It occurs to me that the NRA should partner with the NTSB and have all the car crash test dummies wearing loaded weapons, in all manner of holsters, in the waistband, loose on the car seat, whatever. I think we'd learn pretty much what we already know: practically every unintentional discharge, ever, has been due to a finger on the trigger in conjunction with a brain fart.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:41 pm 
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Great idea, there. I bet you are 100% correct. And thanks for saying "unintended" discharge instead of accidental.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:43 pm 
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On the other forum that I mentioned above, somebody posted a note saying he was an LEO and that he knew of dropped guns firing frequently, and therefore he was glad that Colt had the firing-pin safety.

I doubt the truth of that claim. He may be a cop, and he may not, but I would bet a very large amount of money that, unless they are walking around with SAAs with a live round under the hammer, the number of discharges from dropped guns is zero point zero zero zero, to the nearest zero.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:25 pm 
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Brewman wrote:
Great idea, there. I bet you are 100% correct. And thanks for saying "unintended" discharge instead of accidental.
I prefer the acronym DSD -- Dogshit Stupid Discharges. I probably wouldn't refer to those DSDs where somebody innocent gets seriously hurt or worse that way, though; there's nothing funny about that.

Orthogonally... at Hahnemann Hospital in Philadelphia, they have a special code number to alert physicians to, well, a not uncommon problem there. In Philadelphia, apparently, the stylish way for a gang banger to carry his "nine" is to stick it down the front of his pants. Firearms safety training not being a big part of gang banger culture, the obvious sorts of things sometimes happen, and, well, the doctors at Hahnemann Hospital have had to come up with a special code number for the "self-deJohnsoning" that some of the bangers have engaged in.

Think of it as evolution in action.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:40 pm 
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joelr wrote:

Think of it as evolution in action.


You can also think of it as chlorine for the gene pool :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 7:25 pm 
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joelr wrote:
Brewman wrote:
Great idea, there. I bet you are 100% correct. And thanks for saying "unintended" discharge instead of accidental.
I prefer the acronym DSD -- Dogshit Stupid Discharges. I probably wouldn't refer to those DSDs where somebody innocent gets seriously hurt or worse that way, though; there's nothing funny about that.

Orthogonally... at Hahnemann Hospital in Philadelphia, they have a special code number to alert physicians to, well, a not uncommon problem there. In Philadelphia, apparently, the stylish way for a gang banger to carry his "nine" is to stick it down the front of his pants. Firearms safety training not being a big part of gang banger culture, the obvious sorts of things sometimes happen, and, well, the doctors at Hahnemann Hospital have had to come up with a special code number for the "self-deJohnsoning" that some of the bangers have engaged in.
Think of it as evolution in action.


:lol: :!: :lol: :!: :lol: :!: :lol: :!:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 8:53 pm 
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I can just hear it now, "Dr So&SO, we have a 9minus7 in the ER" :D :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:47 pm 
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Dave Matheny wrote:
On the other forum that I mentioned above, somebody posted a note saying he was an LEO and that he knew of dropped guns firing frequently, and therefore he was glad that Colt had the firing-pin safety.

I doubt the truth of that claim.
"knew of" That is, he didn't observe them first-hand, but rather someone claimed that was what happened. "I dropped it and it went off" sounds a lot better than "I was being a really stupid idiot and pulled the trigger."


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