[Editing in answers I've found as time goes on.]

I'm planning ahead on the idea of assembling a Title 2 firearm. I would like to someday "make" an SBR by installing a <16" barrel, so I'm gathering information on what is involved in an ATF Form 1 application. This would be my first NFA firearm, so I'm just a little unsure of the process.

I believe I understand the form/photo/fingerprint card part (and that all of those are needed in duplicate), and the $200 postal money order for the tax. It's the more nuanced aspects of filing for an SBR that I'd love help getting cleared up:

1) I need do a double-check on the legality of this idea. SBR's are OK in Minnesota, right? I know owning a suppressor is a no-no, and machineguns/SBS's are limited in some ways. I wanted to verify that SBR's are allowed for "mere mortals" though, or this could become a very short research project indeed

SBR's are indeed civilian-legal in MN. No special licenses are required, nor is any state paperwork or registration. This is not the case for all NFA items; double-check for yourself before you start a project like this.

2) Anyone have experience obtaining a signature from the Chief of the Edina PD? How about from Sheriff McGowan? (I can only imagine there...) The MSP Chief? If anyone knows of a friendly DA from my area or something, that would be most helpful.

I have heard conflicting reports on this matter. Some say ATF looks for the signature of your most local chief LEO. (So if you have a city police force, you must get your form signed by its chief. If not, resort to your county sheriff, etc.) Others say that ATF will accept a signature from anyone in a position mentioned on the Form 1, and that there are in fact even more acceptable persons to get a sign-off from than are mentioned on the form. I will need to check with ATF NFA branch about this.

3) Do I submit an ATF Form 5330.20 along with the 5320.1? Someone said to include one of these.

Yes. Include this completed form certifying you are a citizen with any Form 1 application.

4) Where may I get fingerprinted locally? I actually have a couple of 258 "blue lines" fingerprint cards, although I assume any agency that would print me would have them. I should get a spare card done for a future FL CC permit application while I'm at it...

First, make sure to use the proper fingerprint cards from the ATF. The St. Paul office can be reached at (651) 726-0200, they will mail you any cards or forms that you need. The Edina Police Dept. will fingerprint residents on Wednesdays from 6-7PM, cost is $10 for the first set of prints, and $5 for each set thereafter, so it is best to get all the cards you need done at once. Only cash or check payment is accepted. Leave the cards blank as the computerized system will nicely print much of your information onto the card for you. Check with your local station as they may have a similar offer. Do not try to take prints yourself! Poorly-captured prints will slow your application down.

5) Any leads on a local shop or metalwork hobbyist who would do the engraving work once I get the stamped form back & buy the barrel? I actually work at an aluminum/SS fab shop, but I'd take more sources just in case I can't get my usual helpers at work to do me a favor with this pet project.

All NFA firearm manufacturers have to mark their firearms with certain information. The information on the firearm from its original manufacturer is fine while it is still a Title I item, that is, up until you shorten the barrel. Once it is an NFA firearm, you must mark it according to 27 CFR § 479.102. Conveniently, you can adopt the original serial number & other markings as your own; however, your name (or whatever you're known by as a manufacturer), and the city & state (or state abbreviation) where the firearm was made (or where your manufacturing business is!) must be added. This information, unlike the S/N, can go on the receiver, frame, or barrel. See a copy of an official ATF letter that caused confusion here, and a correction from ATF here

I also assume that the purchase of the original rifle proceeds normally, since I am making the SBR later (that is, I don't need to go through a Class 3 dealer for it since it is a Title 1 firearm at the time of purchase) -- correct me if I'm wrong. Then I would submit my ATF items, receive the tax stamp after I wait for approval, buy the short barrel, have it engraved with my details, and finally be able to do the coversion. I do hope I have all of this correct.

Yes, if you are converting a Title 1 (normal) firearm, you may proceed as usual up until the point you plan to start changing it to a Title 2. Then, before you begin work, get an approved Form 1 for it. Only then should you buy the aftermarket barrel or do the chop-down job, etc.

Here's some handy contact numbers for this:
Jeff Luther, BCA (direct line): 651-793-1076
If you have a state firearms law question, BCA will probably want you to speak to this man. I know he's been mentioned a lot here before.

Wendy Miller, ATF (direct): 651-726-0205
Will answer GCA/NFA & state law questions on firearms, can mail you forms, etc.

ATF NFA Branch
244 Meedy Road
Martinsburg, W.V. 25401
304-616-4500
Apparently this is their current number; however, I have yet to get through to them. I was told they prefer to handle inquiries, etc. in writing, anyway.

The police/sheriffs generally do it at no charge for residents of their jurisdictions.

Make sure you get an application from Florida -- Florida wants you to use THEIR card, with some info preprinted on it.

Not around here, the going rate that I have been told, and what I was charged when I got my Florida permit was $10. Not a big deal, but not free either.

I do fingerprinting for our county. It's one of the tasks assigned to my deputy reserve unit. We fingerprint twice per month. Our fee is $10 for county residents, and $20 for those who do not live in the county (Scott).
Let me know if you'd like more info. Looks like you're from Hennepin county, so your fee would be the $20, and we'd use whatever card you bring, or you could use our cards.

You must use the ATF cards. I have them at the shop.

A reason to stop by your place again (I popped in and got a "Murderapolis" t-shirt once).

I'll check at the Edina police station as well regarding if/when they take fingerprints, and maybe someone will know whether Chief Siitari generally signs off on Form 1's.

Good thread. I've been toying with this idea, too, and am assuming that lopping the barrel off (as opposed to swapping it with another one) is considered the same thing, namely 'manufacturing' an SBR.

Also, are there any 'code words' to be used on the form to avoid unusual scrutiny? I'm thinking of shortening a pistol caliber AR barrel to give it a neater SMG-style look, rather than the goofy pencil-barrel aesthetic it has. I don't suppose "so it looks cooler" is what ATF or my CLEO wants to see on the form...

Yes, you want to get a Form 1 approved before doing any cutting. But that does fall under the 'manufacturing my own' purview.

I've read several suggestions on what to answer question 4i with:
"Any [all] lawful purposes"
"Personal collection"
"Investment"

...I don't think what's in that box will really make or break your application, unless you specifically stated some illegal reason

I would first check with the BCA. you must report all NFA firearms to the BAC.

I don't have any NFA firearms. I'm interested in constructing one, under the rules and regulations of NFA. What do I have to tell the BCA? When? Before or after I get approval from ATF? Before or after I manufacture it? The involvement of the BCA is a new wrinkle to me that I didn't think I had read about.

WRT the forms, I agree that "personal collection" or "any legal purpose" type answers are the best. And, while I'm sure it's not a deal-breaker, I wouldn't put it past my Sheriff to scrutinize every letter and line of my application for a reason not to sign it.

Dirk

I've learned a little more; here's what's up:

Edina Police Department will fingerprint residents Wednesdays from 6-7PM for $10. I'd assume that's $10/set, but I won't find out for another week or so when I finally go in.

BCA wanted me to speak with Jeff Luther since it was a firearms question, and then Jeff passed me off to Wendy Miller, ATF Saint Paul, to get the definitive answer about whether a short-barrel rifle is legal in our state.

Wendy had just gotten back into the office yesterday after a training trip, but she still only took a day to get back to me with information! Really appreciated the quick work on my behalf, and her good attitude ('I'd rather make you wait awhile than give you an incomplete answer or say 'sorry' and pass you off').

Wendy spoke with the AG's office. SBR's actually fall under pistol statutes! So they're not flat-out illegal like suppressors, nor is there anything extra require like there is for machineguns or short-barrel shotguns (MN Statute 609.67 -- thanks, Jeff). No registration with BCA, no dealer or C&R FFL required... just the ATF approval. Extremely glad to have that point cleared up.

I also got explanations for several other things:

-> Get the ATF approval BEFORE actually converting your firearm to an SBR. Do not begin work. I already knew this, but it bears repeating. You could probably get in big trouble if you have a short barrel sitting around by your destined rifle without a stamped Form 1 for it.

-> If I ever wanted to resell the firearm, I have the option of "de-SBR'ing" it by reinstalling the factory barrel. Then it could be sold as a regular rifle again under the GCA, it would not be an NFA firearm. IF YOU DO THIS, notify the ATF that you are doing so & the gun is no longer a Title 2 item! They will want to remove it from their database; I'd say you'd want the link of your name and that firearm to be removed from the registry anyway.

-> You can resell the gun as an SBR as well, of course. That would be a... Form 4? That's looks like the one (Wendy just told me earlier today, but I forgot. Didn't really consider that bit of info important since I really don't even want to sell my future SBR!).

-> Photographs for the Form 1 should be passport-like. Well, the form says that anyway: "approximately 2 in. x 2 in."

-> Have your fingerprints professionally taken! They have actually received 'do-it-yourself' sets, which are many times blurred, etc. That would definitely hold up your application, so it's best for both parties to get it right the first time. If you don't have a local PD willing to print you, I think the Hennepin County Sheriff's Office crime lab does it.

-> Oh, and if you need any forms or fingerprint cards, you can get ATF to send them to you as well. Although I got cards from lastgunshop while I had the chance

-> This is something I checked on that lastgunshop mentioned: the chief LEO sign-off (item 13 on the Form 1) does indeed have to be from your most local department head officer. So for me that's Edina's Chief Siitari. If your city doesn't have a PD, you go to your county sheriff, etc.

Wendy acted very nonchalant about obtaining that last bit, as though getting your chief LEO to sign is easy. I don't know, I've heard it can be quite a trick depending on the officer. She gave me a lot of reasons it doesn't matter at all though, which should help me plead my case if I run into trouble. Some of the finer points: the signature is not permission -- ATF grants that. It is merely a certification that the officer knows the firearm would be legal in his jurisdiction (which any SBR would be in Edina), and he has no reason to believe the owner will use it for anything unlawful (which would require cause/proof if an officer wanted to claim that). It does not make the officer liable or anything at any point, it's just a one-time check with someone the ATF wants done. There is no law against signing, even if the officer did think he was signing something false anyway.

I might edit the start of this thread with updates in the future as this moves forward, but most of the pertinent questions have been answered already. Now it's just a matter of waiting for my rifle, filing the forms, waiting for the tax stamp, and buying/installing the short barrel.

With an SBR, are you registering the rifle as a SBR or just the barrel?

I just found the Short Barreled shotgun statute. So, shorty-shotties (pistol grip, less then 18" barrel) do not fall under this restriction?

First answer: you're registering the rifle, I think, because you put its original serial number on the Form 1. ATF treats it more or less as the original gun, only now it falls under Title 2 for some reason. They don't appear to care exactly what was done. For instance, you may chop the existing barrel instead of dropping in a replacement one. And in that case you wouldn't have a part to register at all, except the gun.

Also (I had forgotten to mention this) you don't need to engrave the barrel with your name/address as the "manufacturer" if you are just dropping in a second barrel. That's because the gun already has a manufacturer; the original company it came from is all ATF cares about. I guess they are not interested in reinventing the wheel.

I assume you would still have to engrave a gun if you built it completely by hand though -- someone has to claim it on the Form 1. I must admit that'd be fun to be listed as the manufacturer on some firearm; I could make up my own serial numbers...

I'm not positive what you're asking in that second question. Shorty-shotties definitely do fall under MN Statue 609 § 67. They also fall under the ATF rules when they get to < 26" overall length and/or 18" barrel length. So in that case you need to comply with both restrictions (Form 1 your shotgun before buying the short barrel for the ATF, and be qualified to own it plus inform BCA you have it within the given time limit so MN is happy).

It's basically a matter of always, always, always following ATF rules (as long as you live in the US, anyway), and then there may or may not be additional state laws to abide by. For instance, MN state law forbids suppressors even though ATF allows them, and state law makes you jump through more hoops for MG's, SBS. Several websites have a table showing which NFA items are allowed in which states (here or here).

Maybe my second question was just trying to incite discussion, as I would like a shorty-shottie.

The short barreled shotgun derives itself from a shotgun and minnesota defines shotguns as being fired from the shoulder. So, a pistol grip'd shotgun under 18 inches doesn't count as a short barreled shotgun (under MN law).

Ah, no problem. OK, where is the statute that defines a "regular" shotgun? I have not read that one yet. Now I get what you mean, halfway through writing my reply: once you throw that pistol grip on, it can't be shoulder-fired, so it's not a "shotgun" by MN law?

Well, 609.67 might hold an answer for you:



Attaching a pistol grip to a shotgun is a modification, so once it dips under 26" OAL, you're in trouble. It may not be a shoulder-fired gun, but it was made from a shotgun, which is all the SBS statute cares about.

And of course if you leave a stock on the gun but drop the barrel length, you get covered by the first part of that paragraph.


...man, I'm glad I don't interpret this stuff for a living.