Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive :: View topic - Committee hearing on Gun Show bill THIS FRIDAY.

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HF 953 (Paymar-DFL) is pure harassment of legitimate gun owners and their non-commercial disposition of their property because, as a 2008 empirical study by Uiversity of Maryland criminologists demonstrates , it will have NO EFFECT on homicides or suicides and provide NO REDUCTION in firearm-related deaths (or violent crime, for that matter). All it will do is impose unnecessary deprivation of liberty, hassle, delay, and cost on Minnesota’s 1.5 million legitimate gun owners.

GOCRA encourages you to OPPOSE this bill.

1. A January 2009 Star-Tribune article says that the Twin Cities’ homicide problem is largely one of uncontrolled gang/drug activity. Anyone who can sell or purchase illegal drugs can acquire a gun in that illegal transaction. An FBI report in February 2009 identifies “weapons trafficking” as a major GANG activity. Don’t be fooled, these are black market transactions; not those of legitimate gun owners.

2. The legitimate market (consisting of licensed dealers and private citizens) is not the same thing as the "black market" (consisting of thieves, "fences," and "accomplices"). There are two distinct markets with different actors! In a Business Week column, Professor Gary Becker the Nobel Prize winner in Economics stated:

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[t]here are two almost discrete markets for weapons. The legitimate market caters to people who want guns for hunting and for protection against holdups and burglaries. The [black] market caters to criminals who want weapons to help them steal, intimidate rape, participate in gang warfare, and steal drugs.

Becker goes on to state that controls on the legitimate sellers CANNOT have effect on an underground market that ignores those controls. Can not have any effect!!!

3. According to the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics less than 1 in 50 guns acquired by criminals come from gun shows or private resales. And virtually all of that tiny number comes from “strawman purchases” made by accomplices who CAN pass any background check (as the Va. Tech and NIU killers both DID).

4. Minnesota statutes already contain FOUR (4) provisions to cut off “black market” transfers. They are: (1) §609.52 – Theft by the criminal himself; (2) §609.53 – Theft-once-removed by acquisition from a “fence”; (3) §609.66, subd. 1c – Receipt from an accomplice or strawman; and (4) §624.7141 – Transfer to an ineligible person.

5. The bill targets the wrong people and won’t reduce crime. It is simply a harassment bill to vex millions of law-abiding Minnesota gun owners. Perhaps that is why the Minnesota gun control act has never included these private sales and why the federal "Brady" Bill doesn't either!

Author:	kimberman [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Committee hearing on Gun Show bill THIS FRIDAY.
We plan to kill it (the first time) in this committee. FRIDAY, March 6, 2009 * Note: * Change in meeting time 10:30 AM Committee: Crime Victims/Criminal Records Division Room: Room 5 of the State Office Building Chair: Rep. John Lesch Agenda: HF573 (Juhnke) Minnesota Puppy and Kitten Mill Cruelty Prevention Act; Dog and cat breeder required permit created; HF647 (Mullery) Sex trafficking provisions clarified by providing definitions of sexual trafficking and sexual trafficking victim; HF953 (Paymar) Transfer of pistols or semiautomatic military-style assault weapons provisions modified.

Author:	princewally [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:44 pm ]
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Is this a "swarm the capitol" event?

Author:	joelr [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:52 pm ]
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princewally wrote: Is this a "swarm the capitol" event? I don't think so, but I'll defer to Joe on that. If we can kill it in committee (granted, only to have it rise from the grave) without doing that, I'd rather hold off.

Author:	kimberman [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:30 pm ]
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Contact the Committee members (except Paymar) and voice your opposition. Here are some "talking points." Don't just read it to them. Quote: HF 953 (Paymar-DFL) is pure harassment of legitimate gun owners and their non-commercial disposition of their property because, as a 2008 empirical study by Uiversity of Maryland criminologists demonstrates , it will have NO EFFECT on homicides or suicides and provide NO REDUCTION in firearm-related deaths (or violent crime, for that matter). All it will do is impose unnecessary deprivation of liberty, hassle, delay, and cost on Minnesota’s 1.5 million legitimate gun owners. GOCRA encourages you to OPPOSE this bill. 1. A January 2009 Star-Tribune article says that the Twin Cities’ homicide problem is largely one of uncontrolled gang/drug activity. Anyone who can sell or purchase illegal drugs can acquire a gun in that illegal transaction. An FBI report in February 2009 identifies “weapons trafficking” as a major GANG activity. Don’t be fooled, these are black market transactions; not those of legitimate gun owners. 2. The legitimate market (consisting of licensed dealers and private citizens) is not the same thing as the "black market" (consisting of thieves, "fences," and "accomplices"). There are two distinct markets with different actors! In a Business Week column, Professor Gary Becker the Nobel Prize winner in Economics stated: Quote: [t]here are two almost discrete markets for weapons. The legitimate market caters to people who want guns for hunting and for protection against holdups and burglaries. The [black] market caters to criminals who want weapons to help them steal, intimidate rape, participate in gang warfare, and steal drugs. Becker goes on to state that controls on the legitimate sellers CANNOT have effect on an underground market that ignores those controls. Can not have any effect!!! 3. According to the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics less than 1 in 50 guns acquired by criminals come from gun shows or private resales. And virtually all of that tiny number comes from “strawman purchases” made by accomplices who CAN pass any background check (as the Va. Tech and NIU killers both DID). 4. Minnesota statutes already contain FOUR (4) provisions to cut off “black market” transfers. They are: (1) §609.52 – Theft by the criminal himself; (2) §609.53 – Theft-once-removed by acquisition from a “fence”; (3) §609.66, subd. 1c – Receipt from an accomplice or strawman; and (4) §624.7141 – Transfer to an ineligible person. 5. The bill targets the wrong people and won’t reduce crime. It is simply a harassment bill to vex millions of law-abiding Minnesota gun owners. Perhaps that is why the Minnesota gun control act has never included these private sales and why the federal "Brady" Bill doesn't either!

Author:	BigBlue [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:11 pm ]
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As I did with my own Rep. and Senator, I wrote each of the committee members (minus Paymar) a personal plea to oppose this bill. BB

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Committee hearing on Gun Show bill THIS FRIDAY. http://www.twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=11986	Page 1 of 2

Author:	kimberman [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:18 pm ]
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URGENT. Call you friends in the OWATONNA area and ask them to contact Rep. Kory Kath (DFL -- District 26A) at 651-296-5368 and ask him to OPPOSE this bill - HF953 _ by voting not to pass it out of the Subcommittee.

Author:	kecker [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:36 pm ]
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So just to be clear, the current plan is to contact committee members and our legislators, NOT to swarm the capitol on Friday?? I'm perfectly happy with one or the other or both....just curious what the suggestion is by those leading this effort.

Author:	Mosin [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:36 pm ]
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Rep. Paymar has requested a delay in hearing this bill. As of now it is officially off the agenda for Friday.

Author:	Sietch [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:38 pm ]
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Second that. It so happens I have Friday free. It'd be very cool if Joel or Joe and whatever leaders here could give the rest of us an expert consensus on what would be the most helpful for anybody who has the time.

Author:	kecker [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:56 pm ]
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Mosin wrote: Rep. Paymar has requested a delay in hearing this bill. As of now it is officially off the agenda for Friday. Doh! Had this Friday off already too. You have any insight as to the reason for this delay?? Public outcry?? Shoring up support?? He grew a brain?? Other??

Author:	joelr [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:58 pm ]
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My own take, fwiw, is that it's always good and useful to show up -- as an individual. You listen to folks, you talk to folks; it's a good thing. On the other hand, when we, as a community, decide to show up collectively, we have always -- each and every time -- outnumbered the antis, most of the time by a lot. But that's a different thing; we simply can't be seen as showing up in quantity and then not do the quantity part. If I had a free day on Friday, I'd wander by, and sit in.

Author:	plblark [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:59 pm ]
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wait and let the interest die down, then try again? Get it moved to another committee and then try again. VIGILANCE, my friends. Thanks to Kimberman for bird dogging this and Mosin for providing a lot of good information.

Author:	joelr [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:59 pm ]
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kecker wrote: Mosin wrote: Rep. Paymar has requested a delay in hearing this bill. As of now it is officially off the agenda for Friday. Doh! Had this Friday off already too. You have any insight as to the reason for this delay?? Public outcry?? Shoring up support?? He grew a brain?? Other?? My guess is that he was afraid that the advance notice would generate a flurry of attendance from folks like us, and wants to do it with as short notice as humanly possible, with his CSM cronies lined up in advance.

Author:	Mosin [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:01 pm ]
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kecker wrote: Doh! Had this Friday off already too. You have any insight as to the reason for this delay?? Public outcry?? Shoring up support?? He grew a brain?? Other?? I'm pretty sure it's not the latter. I'd love to speculate. Perhaps he doesn't have his arguments in place or it could be that he counted the votes and thought he better reorganize. The agenda is now official on the website and I see that other bills were removed also. Maybe some members couldn't make the meeting. I really have no idea. Quote: FRIDAY, March 6, 2009 * Note: * Change in meeting time 10:30 AM Room: Room 5 of the State Office Building Chair: Rep. John Lesch Bill(s) Removed Agenda: HF953 (Paymar), HF647 (Mullery) and HF573 (Juhnke) have been removed from the agenda.

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Author:	Hunter07 [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:06 pm ]
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plblark wrote: Thanks to Kimberman for bird dogging this and Mosin for providing a lot of good information. Yes, THANK YOU BOTH for keeping the rest of us up to speed on this.