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| 7.62x39mm http://www.twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2315 |
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| Author: | Pinnacle [ Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | 7.62x39mm |
I have been pondering this calber for a number of years and I have finally come to some conclusions - For what it is - it is PERFECT. It is a moderately powerful low recoiling - hard hitting - accurate - and relibale caliber.... 1) Moderately Powerful - This caliber projects a relatively heavy bullet at a very useful velocity - carries enough energy to do its job. 2) Low Recoil - Cupcake to shoot and not as butal on the ears as a 5.56mm. 3) Accurate - Minute of Human being at 2-300 yards - what more can you ask from a small military caliber. And here is the thing - there is NO variation of quality - and or headspace from one nations ammo to anohters in this caliber - 5.56mm and 7.62x51mm can vary.... 4) Reliable - due to the inehrent construction of the series of guns invented to shoot it. Hard to beat an AK for a mid range battle gun. 5.56 is like an ice pick - .0 cal is a lot more hard hitting at CLOSE range - the reasonable range of the caliber.... Yeah 5.56 is a good caliber - long range - low recoil - good delivery package - but for some applications with Military ammo - it is limited. |
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| Author: | DeanC [ Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 7.62x39mm |
Pinnacle wrote: 2) Low Recoil - Cupcake to shoot and not as butal on the ears as a 5.56mm. I hadn't really thought about it, but you are exactly right. It is especially noticable at an indoor range. Lots more muzzle flash too. I imagine the 5.56 is loaded to a much higher pressure. |
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| Author: | Pinnacle [ Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I will look into the pressures - I think that Soviet round is lower pressure... I really think that the Soviet 30 is about the ticket for just about everything that a battle rifle needs to be. I am not a huge fan of a .22 rifle - I like a little more bullet and a little less velocity when you are limited to a FMJ style bullet. Talk about a HP or a Sft Point for Military Applications and you are talking about another matter alltogther. In a bolt action - it is a REALLY good little caliber... Very accurate - and plenty for Deer and the like. |
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| Author: | Greg [ Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:45 pm ] |
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and, under normal circumstances, cheap! I've still got a pretty good stock of the $90.00/1000 Wolf stuff. The current price of $150.00/1000 is bound to come down soon. |
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| Author: | mobocracy [ Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I'd like to see a side-side comparison between an AK in 7.62x39 and the StG 44 in 7.92x33. Did Mr. Kalishnikov's copy really improve things much? |
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| Author: | Ramoel [ Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I've got a Ruger Mini-30 which is a 7.62X39 and it's a fun gun to shoot. I've always used the cheap Wolf ammo in it. It's roughly about the same power as a 30-30 if you intend to hunt with it. I did shoot a nice Buck with it a few years ago and it dropped in it's tracks. That was also using the cheap Wolf hollow point ammo. I've got a couple of 30 round mags as well as the standard 5 shot. You can load them up and shoot for a long time without reloading. I've also got a 2.5X scope on the gun which is perfect for this caliber in my opinion. |
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| Author: | squib_joe [ Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Pinnacle wrote: I will look into the pressures - I think that Soviet round is lower pressure... You'll see chamber pressures of 38,000 to 45,000 CUP range in the 7.62x39 and 50,000 to 55,000 CUP range in the 5.56 NATO (sometimes as high as 60,000 for certain military loads). The 7.62x39 is far from perfect, in my opinion. Too much projectile stability, especially in the older designs, induced yaw far too late to be as effective as the newer designs with air pockets and gliding jackets. |
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| Author: | Macx [ Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
If I have to shoot at a man with a rifle I will carry, I like the .308/ 7.62x51 If I have to shoot at 300 men with a rifle I will carry, I like the 7.62x39. The same line of logic applies to deer in my mind. Given the number of shots I am apt to take on deer in one day, I like .308 & am thankful not to have to shoot at the targets I mentioned earlierin this post. That said, my .308 AK (Saiga) is my favorite rifle & I love the AK platform in all it's incarnations. |
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| Author: | Pinnacle [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
mobocracy wrote: I'd like to see a side-side comparison between an AK in 7.62x39 and the StG 44 in 7.92x33. Did Mr. Kalishnikov's copy really improve things much? Conisdering that the Stg44 is sort of not in production and there are more than 50 MILLION AK rifles in service - I would have to say that the AK wins by Default. The Stg44 was an interesting rifle and was the father of the german HK Family of rifles. It was a holy terror and thank g-d tha tthe Nazis ran out of steam before they made more of em. The AK is Far from perfect - and I understand where you stand with the bullet stability issue Squib - but as far as it goes - the little Sovieround holds its own pretty well considering how old it is and the continuing popularity of the round. It is like a 30-30 and the 30-30 has put meat on the table for YEARS and YEARS reliably. It is no 308- then it does not really nee to be for the function of the rifle that it is chambered in - 2-300 yards - good enough for the average riflemen... 308 is a long range tool - but vry few people can really take advantae of all of its power and inehent accuracy out to its max effective range of 800m (or so - give or take) |
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| Author: | mobocracy [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Pinnacle wrote: Conisdering that the Stg44 is sort of not in production and there are more than 50 MILLION AK rifles in service - I would have to say that the AK wins by Default. The Stg44 was an interesting rifle and was the father of the german HK Family of rifles. It was a holy terror and thank g-d tha tthe Nazis ran out of steam before they made more of em. The AK is Far from perfect - and I understand where you stand with the bullet stability issue Squib - but as far as it goes - the little Sovieround holds its own pretty well considering how old it is and the continuing popularity of the round. The AK didn't really defeat the StG, since nobody (besides the Russians...) picked up on the StG and it's medium rifle cartrridge. The StG simply faded into history. But considering the AK is so obviously based on the StG44, it'd still be interesting to see them compared side-side, just to get an idea on how much the AK design actually improves on the StG44. I often wonder if the AK's popularity has anything to do with the specifics of the gun, or if its simply a question of it being so widespread, thus making rifles, magazines and ammunition easily available and relatively inexpensive. I can imagine durability is probably the most important factor inherent to the gun design, probably followed by full-auto capability. I can't see anything about the AK's ballistics being terribly important to its success outside of the fact that when it was implemented, a medium rifle round was a novel alternative to the pistol round and full-size rifle round. It'd be interesting to see the AK go up against the AR, the FAL, the G3 and some of the newer space guns and see how well it fares. |
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| Author: | Macx [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: It'd be interesting to see the AK go up against the AR, the FAL, the G3 and some of the newer space guns and see how well it fares. If a durability test is part of the program. . . . If reliable fire after extended field maintenance, by uneducated conscripts is part of the program. . . If cost of equipment and manufacture is part of the program . . . If ratio of round’s effectiveness to weight and recoil are part of the program . . . I am very sure that the AK and it’s funny little round won’t show poorly in that company. |
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| Author: | mobocracy [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Macx wrote: Quote: It'd be interesting to see the AK go up against the AR, the FAL, the G3 and some of the newer space guns and see how well it fares. If a durability test is part of the program. . . . If reliable fire after extended field maintenance, by uneducated conscripts is part of the program. . . If cost of equipment and manufacture is part of the program . . . If ratio of round’s effectiveness to weight and recoil are part of the program . . . I am very sure that the AK and it’s funny little round won’t show poorly in that company. I don't think it would either, although it makes you wonder why it or obvious copies haven't been more widely adopted by governments in a position to make a choice. |
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| Author: | Pinnacle [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
mobocracy wrote: Macx wrote: Quote: It'd be interesting to see the AK go up against the AR, the FAL, the G3 and some of the newer space guns and see how well it fares. If a durability test is part of the program. . . . If reliable fire after extended field maintenance, by uneducated conscripts is part of the program. . . If cost of equipment and manufacture is part of the program . . . If ratio of round’s effectiveness to weight and recoil are part of the program . . . I am very sure that the AK and it’s funny little round won’t show poorly in that company. I don't think it would either, although it makes you wonder why it or obvious copies haven't been more widely adopted by governments in a position to make a choice. Well - there are more than 50 Million of them presently in service -worldwide ..... my experience with the AR has not been at al positive. I call them the Jam O MAtic The G3 is punishing and huge and heavy - the FAL is a bit better but still heavy (GREAT GUN). And yeah the Stg was an interesting part of history and very influential. Look at the Galil - it is more or less a copy of an AK (Valmet) with some improvements - Good Gun Most of the armies of the middle east use the AK China uses AK's and Variants.... and their new guns are based upon the AK Israel uses a new gun based loosely on the AK Africa is an AK Continent (and G3's and Fal's) - Russia (obviously) Finland - etc...... Lots of people use the AK and copies. |
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| Author: | Pinnacle [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Macx wrote: If I have to shoot at a man with a rifle I will carry, I like the .308/ 7.62x51 If I have to shoot at 300 men with a rifle I will carry, I like the 7.62x39. The same line of logic applies to deer in my mind. Given the number of shots I am apt to take on deer in one day, I like .308 & am thankful not to have to shoot at the targets I mentioned earlierin this post. That said, my .308 AK (Saiga) is my favorite rifle & I love the AK platform in all it's incarnations. Sound Logic.... An Ak is a BATTLE RIFLE - not a target gun - not a varmint gun - it is minute of BG at 300m - plain and simple. The round itself is VERY ACCURATE and easy to shoot out of a bolt gun - there is a lot of potential there. I love this kind of discussion - thought provoking. |
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| Author: | Old Dude [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
One reason not to copy them was geopolitical. During the Cold War, there were three blocs--the Communist, the "West" and the non-aligned. The Communist bloc dictated that armed forces would use the 7.62x39 cartridge and some variant of AK47. The West chose the 7.62x54 (.308) and, later. the 5.54 that we all know. Many of the non-aligned nations didn't have the capacity to have their own arms industry, so they bought their small arms from one of the two major blocs. The fact that many, if not most, chose AK's, or some variant thereof, probably reflected as much on the ability of the Communist bloc to provide them at very good rates (ranging down to free) and in very large quantities. It certainly didn't hurt that it was as durable as a rock, as reliable as bad news, and could be maintained by anybody who could figure out which end of the thing to put to the shoulder. I am not sure that it is inherently "better" than other rifles, but its presence everywhere from Afghanistan to the streets of American cities certainly makes it perhaps the single most successful rifle of recent times. I do know that when phorvick and I are doing a class, one of the highlights is when I pull my WASR10 from its case during a discussion of carrying long guns. |
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