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Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive • View topic - Are you Training???? ..... Rent a Classroom !!!
 
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 Are you Training???? ..... Rent a Classroom !!! 
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 Post subject: Are you Training???? ..... Rent a Classroom !!!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:35 pm 
Delicate Flower

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:20 am
Posts: 3311
Location: St. Paul, MN.
My interesting experience @ Bills Gun Shop Robbinsdale.

I will attempt to keep this as factual as possible ( no comments in other words), although biting my tongue hurts.

Had a meeting at Bills Robbinsdale this morning for the purpose of range qualifying a previously certified instructor. He has utilized their facility in the past for training. We sat at a table in the lower level near the rear entrance to chat and go through some paperwork. The attendant floated by several times and then stopped and spoke with us.

He asked if we were doing some training to which we answered "kinda" and "some instructor stuff", and we will be shooting. Bear in mind we had only been there about 10 minutes and gave no indication as to how long we would use the table. Place was empty basically @ 10:30 am.

We were informed that we could not do any type of training unless we rented a classroom. We were never asked how long we intended to "train" or any further questions as to what we were discussing.

He said this was their new policy as he had been told.

We left and went to a local coffee shop and finished our discussion. We made alternate arrangements for the shooting qualification.

Fact: Bills made no classroom rental from us
Fact: Bills made no range fee's from us

My opinions/feelings/thought about Bills......I bite my tongue. :evil:

Andrew feel free to edit.

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 Post subject: Re: Are you Training???? ..... Rent a Classroom !!!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:55 pm 
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ttousi wrote:
My interesting experience @ Bills Gun Shop Robbinsdale.

I will attempt to keep this as factual as possible ( no comments in other words), although biting my tongue hurts.

Had a meeting at Bills Robbinsdale this morning for the purpose of range qualifying a previously certified instructor. He has utilized their facility in the past for training. We sat at a table in the lower level near the rear entrance to chat and go through some paperwork. The attendant floated by several times and then stopped and spoke with us.

He asked if we were doing some training to which we answered "kinda" and "some instructor stuff", and we will be shooting. Bear in mind we had only been there about 10 minutes and gave no indication as to how long we would use the table. Place was empty basically @ 10:30 am.

We were informed that we could not do any type of training unless we rented a classroom. We were never asked how long we intended to "train" or any further questions as to what we were discussing.

He said this was their new policy as he had been told.

We left and went to a local coffee shop and finished our discussion. We made alternate arrangements for the shooting qualification.

Fact: Bills made no classroom rental from us
Fact: Bills made no range fee's from us

My opinions/feelings/thought about Bills......I bite my tongue. :evil:

Andrew feel free to edit.
If you need a class room call me 612-827-3832 Mark 11-8 friday. When was teach the class here we then go to the BPR about a 20 mins drive time, it works out nice.

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Last edited by lastgunshop on Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:28 am 
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Location: Twin Cities
Quote:
Andrew feel free to edit.


I see no need. Your post didn't violate the letter or spirit of any rules that I'm aware of.

My opinion (as an individual, not as a forum mod) follows:

I'm inclined to like Bill's.

I think John has done a great job in improving the facility, its staff, its safety and its reputation. When the TV news goes to him for an opposing-view sound bite to some anti nonsense, he comes across as educated, clean-cut and reasonable.

Bill's has been good to me and the The Pink Pistols when we had a new shooters event there. Sure, it's in their business interest to be THE range that new shooters come to, but they seemed genuinely supportive and gave us a fine deal.

That said, I'm concerned about this policy, if that's what it is.

I think I'll shoot them an email, asking for a written clarification.

Thanks for telling us about this. I'm sure none of us want to inadvertently break rules, and when we all have the best information, we can make the best decision.

More to come.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:36 am 
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Bill Bashing Thread? I had one I was going to post seperately today...

I was there last night. One of the employees was talking to a couple (interested in carry classes) He Said:

1. All the instructors are teaching the same thing (as in same class)
1a. Because the instructors are certified by the state.
2. The state looked at all the instructor's curriculums
2a. They chose the best one- Bill's "They liked ours the best"
3. So now all the instructors are [essentially] 'teaching bill's class'

There was one more thing, but I can't remember exactly what it was. If I were drinking a beverage when he said this one thing, I would have spit it out in amazement that he said that. Implying something along the lines that Bill's should have been the only instructors, or the state wanted Bill's to be the only one...

That and the other guy, helping my friend "J", charged him for a box of ammo that was already paid for and half empty. "J" rented a gun and then bought a gun and did not notice until we left that the ammo was on the receipt.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:56 am 
Delicate Flower

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:20 am
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Location: St. Paul, MN.
Unbelievable.............. :roll: one can only wonder .........have the employees been fed this nonsense or do they come up with it on their own. If it's the "company line" so to speak, they must think the general public is extremely stupid.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:52 am 
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ttousi wrote:
Unbelievable.............. :roll: one can only wonder .........have the employees been fed this nonsense or do they come up with it on their own. If it's the "company line" so to speak, they must think the general public is extremely stupid.
OH ! They do think the general public is EX-Stupid

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Last edited by lastgunshop on Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:26 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:16 am
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Location: Minneapolis, MN
This is interesting news to me, as Bill's North is where I usually shoot my classes. I like Burnsville enough, but it's a bit far to drive.

We'll have to see what develops here.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 6:07 am 
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Location: Hutchinson, MN
:shock: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :!: Wait, let me get my hip waders on, the BS is getting pretty deep and I don't want the crap touching me. AROGANT :!: "Stop at Honest Bill's, we wrote the book on MCPPA training and everyone else is trying to keep up!" :shock:

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Last edited by durbin6 on Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:09 am 
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This is neither pro, nor con, but just a guess as to where this is coming from. When the Tactics Training Center had a table at the gun show on the state fair grounds in the Education Building, I spoke to who I think was Leonard M. Breure. He had mentioned to me that that they where involved in the talks with the DPS/BCA when the instructor certification organization standards were being developed. Was this good or bad, again I don't have any comment, but to be fair, there were several other groups also involved with this. But the comment that was made to me was that the outline put forth by the Tactics Training Center for instructor certification was very much liked by the DPS/BCA and something to the effect that it was exactly what the BCA/DPS was looking for. I am not quoting this, but this is close to as what was said to me. I am not doubting this one bit, even Scott Wiggins at the DPS made comments to me over the phone on my format for instructor certification, maybe that was why my course was the second one to be recognized by the state,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,or maybe not. :wink:
Anyway, again I have no reason to doubt what Mr. Breure told me, and he probably told others the same that he told me and this may very well explain why some confused and maybe uneducated people are making the statements about the Tactics Training Center course that they are making.
Now will this group try to curb the use of Bill's by other permit to carry training instructors, I hope not.

I suppose I should make the standard disclaimer that I am in no way affiliated with or have any monetary gains from Tactics Training Center. :roll:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:54 am 
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Posts: 270
Location: Waconia,Mn.
I have had pretty good experiences at Bill's.I bought an AR15 there last year,got a good price,great service.They gave me a coupon for a free range pass and free gun rental ,which I lost,I came to the range ,brought 2 armloads of shooting stuff,realized I had lost the coupon,explained to the salesman,he promptly gave me a replacement soley on my word.I had a great day shooting my new ar,and tried a high-end Kimber.I also took a class there from Threat Management Institute,who rented a classroom and range and it was a pleasant experience.I ccw'd to and from,and just walked out to the range before and after to load / unload w/no issues or problems.I have been to Bill's several times in the past year and to Bill's north once under the new ownership,and have found the staff to be great! I truly hope that they don't fall into elitist snobbery or lose the atmosphere that they have created.I think a bunch of e-mails may be in order to let them know that other instuctors are customers too.

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 Post subject: Some observations...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:13 am 
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... not as the Forum administrator, but just as a guy.

Andrew's right -- John Monson has made lots of improvements at Bill's, and I think he should be congratulated for it.

That said, again speaking for myself, the sort of silly bragaddocio from more than one of the employees of Bill's shows that there's some way to go. It's, as Donald Rumsfeld would say, unhelpful and unfortunate when a certified training organization makes claims on behalf of the DPS/BCA that aren't supported or supportable by the record.

It would be very unprofessional for the folks at BCA or DPS to endorse one certified organization over another, and by claiming that they have, the Bill's employees are doing neither themselves nor the BCA/DPS any favors.

I'd strongly encourage anybody who directly witnessed such ... unfortunate behavior to communicate what they saw directly to John Monson, who will, I trust, take matters in hand. Failing that, a query to the DPS/BCA -- recounting what was directly observed -- as to whether or not they were endorsing any specific organization would be in order.

I know that Leonard Breuer, Bill's Director of Training, is a Forum member, and -- putting on my administrator's hat, for just a moment -- he's invited to, if he cares to, shed some light on these matters.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:02 am 
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Posts: 364
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Over the past year I have established a good relationship with Bill's North. I really like the staff there, I've been shooting all of my carry classes there, and I've even bought a gun from them (and intend to buy more).

I think that their classroom & range rental rates are pretty reasonable, and I've been planning on renting the space and range time for some basic and advanced handgun and shotgun classes. But it's ludicrous to expect me to pay that rate just to qualify a student. Especially when Rodger Hird charges me less than $10/student to do it at his range.

I'm perfectly willing to have my students pay the point-sharing rate to qualify (rather than drive to Burnsville) but if they want me to rent the classroom when I don't need to - off to Burnsville we will go.

If the Bills francshise were indeed locking out other instructors from using the range I would be very dissapointed. John Monson needs to realize is what he is doing is bad for his business. I've seen this happen in other cities, where a range owner suddenly forgets who his customers are.

I would like to see someone from Bills management comment on this.


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 Post subject: Just sent this
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:57 pm 
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To John Monson at Bill's; his email address is john@billsgs.com:

There's been a discussion on the Forum that involves a couple of incidents at Bill's. While you of course shouldn't -- and, I trust, won't -- feel obliged to, you're more than welcome to respond, and/or participate.

You'll find the relevant thread at

http://www.twincitiescarry.com/forum/vi ... .php?t=335

Very truly yours,

Joel Rosenberg

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 Post subject: Training at Bills Gun Shop & Range
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:24 am 
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Location: Robbinsdale, MN
As the Training Coordinator for Tactics Training Center at Bill's Gun Shop I would like to offer a few thoughts regarding the above posting. The facts presented are correct. We do not allow training to take place in the lobby. The common area of the range is an inappropriate place to conduct training. We have no problem with anyone doing range preparations (i.e. discussing what will be happening on the range), however, for safety reasons we can not allow training to take place in the common areas of our facilities. I was there when this incident occurred. The facility was not empty. There where in fact two other groups / classes going on at that time. The lobby area by the range is a break room type area with vending machines, tables, etc. Not the best place to conduct training. If the individuals involved had infomed the employee that they were only going to be there a short while, they could have easily been moved to a better area to conduct there business. Apparently they felt that a coffee shop was a better place to conduct there training activites. We couldn't disagree more. This projects a bad example that casts a shadow over everyone in the training business. We all need to be more professional than that.

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4080 W. Broadway Ave. N., Suite #1
Robbinsdale, MN 55422
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 Post subject: Setting the record straight.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:43 am 
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As an after thought, I decided that I should clarify this "static" about the DPS/ BCA comments. The fact is that the DPS / BCA says said NOTHING about our Concealed Carry Courses. The comment came from Jim Franklin, Executive Director of the MN Sheriff's Association. At one of the committee meetings to recommend instructor standards to the Commission of the DPS, Mr. Franklin, holding up our course material said "This is what we want to see Concealed Carry training look like in the State of MN".

That being said, there are many other orginazations and instructors doing an outstanding job with Permit to Carry classes throughout the State. Our desire is the work together to raise the level of training that is available to individuals for personal protection. We are glad to offer the use of our facilites to other trainers.

If anyone has any issues or concerns with anything that is being said or going on at Bill's, please feel free to give me a call!

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Training Coordinator
Tactics Training Center
4080 W. Broadway Ave. N., Suite #1
Robbinsdale, MN 55422
763-533-8488


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