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 Class III in MN 
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 Post subject: Class III in MN
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:35 am 
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[Edit: Split from here: http://www.twincitiescarry.com/forum/vi ... php?t=3522 to keep the Class III together - PLB]


VikesFan wrote:
BTW, Bill is an FFL, and does reasonable transfers ($20 for handguns/rifles, $75 for class III stuff).




Please forgive my ignorance. What Class III stuff is legal in MN?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:48 am 
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jaysong wrote:
What Class III stuff is legal in MN?


All of it...................but not just for anyone....... :wink:

There are two kinds of firearms under U.S. (federal) law, title
1 firearms and title 2.

Title 1 firearms are long guns (rifles and shotguns), handguns, silencer, and firearm frames or receivers.

Most NFA weapons are also title 1 firearms.

Title 2 weapons are NFA weapons. Title 2 of the 1968 Gun Control Act is the National Firearms Act (codified at 26 U.S.C. sec. 5801 et seq.), hence NFA.

Title 1 is generally called the Gun Control Act, (18 U.S.C. sec.
921 et seq.).

NFA weapons are also sometimes called class 3 weapons, because a class 3 SOT is needed to deal in NFA weapons.

NFA weapons are: machine guns, sound suppressors (a.k.a.
silencers), short barreled shotguns, short barreled rifles,
destructive devices and "any other weapons". Exactly what these
weapons are is defined in the law, as well as in court cases
interpreting the law.

.


Last edited by hammAR on Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:25 pm 
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HammAR: you listed silencer under both title 1 and 2.

I assume it is title 2?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:11 pm 
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To answer your question as well as I can: While the statute calls these devices "silencers" or "mufflers", the US NFA industry term is "sound suppressor". To deal in or in some cases to own such a device, one must have the appropriate FFL, as well as the proper class of SOT- and pay and file the correct forms, etc.............Form 1, tax paid ($200) or Form 4, tax paid ($200), and in some cases a Form 4473.

A class 1 or 2 SOT may also deal in NFA firearms, in addition to a A class 3 SOT, again depending on the FFL type.

This is because most NFA weapons are also title 1 weapons, and thus both the law regulating title 1 weapons (the GCA) and title 2 weapons (the NFA) must be complied with.

Hope this helps. Remember this is law and a) IANAL, and b) it is always confusing because it is law....especially in this kind of case as the over-site and enforcement is between 4 different Federal Agencies.............and rest assured that each has it's own interpretation....... :shock:

A good source of information is the ATF publication, "Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide" ATF P 5300.4 (01-00). It has a green cover, and contains the text of the GCA, NFA, and the regulations promulgated under those laws, as well as other useful information. As required by the GCA (18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(19)), ATF also publishes a compilation of state laws, "State Laws and Published Ordinances-Firearms", ATF P 5300.5. The current edition is #22 - 2000. Both are free for the asking from ATF. To get forms, or the books, you can write to ATF Distribution Center, P.O. Box 5950, Springfield, VA 22150-5950. Or phone them at (703) 455-7801.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:46 pm 
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OK, so class III would be legal for LE just not for private individuals in MN. So he could LE class III transfers? I thought that LE transfers were sent directly to the agency or am I way off on all this? Thanks.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:24 am 
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Actually Minnesota citizens can legally purchase and own machine guns, SBR, SBS, probably a few more. They cannot own silencers though for some reason, one of the few states that cannot.

Theres a $200 tax and you send your identity to ATF.



Jon


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:45 pm 
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The only machine guns legal for ownership in MN are either C&R or if you're an SOT. Regular Joe's cannot own machine guns. SBR are OK if you can get the LEO signoff. SBS are also prohibited.

More info, with all relevant links:

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=327


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:43 pm 
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You are allowed to possess AOWs in MN and the tax is $5.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:04 pm 
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VikesFan wrote:
The only machine guns legal for ownership in MN are either C&R or if you're an SOT. Regular Joe's cannot own machine guns. SBR are OK if you can get the LEO signoff. SBS are also prohibited.

More info, with all relevant links:

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=327


Actually, regular Joes can own machine guns in MN; they just need to be Curio and Relic qualified. Of course the C&R guns cost more because of this.

Most of the real hobbyists just go with the manufacturers license for $500/yr and then they can make anything they want full auto without paying the $200 tax and the C&R limitation doesn't apply. They also don't have to notify the BATF if they want to take it to a shoot out of state, like the normal owners have to. The only catch is that they have to deactivate or sell the stuff (to other SOTs) when they give up their licenses.

I've got enough friends with legal full auto stuff that I can shoot, so I don't need to go through all the hassle and expense. All my stuff is semi-auto, which is expensive enough to feed as it is.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:08 pm 
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I'm pretty sure that C&R is not even required for MG ownership, just a form 4 I believe it is. You can even create a trust or a corporation so that you don't have to give them your prints and all that stuff, I guess the papers even go through faster too.


Jon

Greg wrote:
VikesFan wrote:
The only machine guns legal for ownership in MN are either C&R or if you're an SOT. Regular Joe's cannot own machine guns. SBR are OK if you can get the LEO signoff. SBS are also prohibited.

More info, with all relevant links:

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=327


Actually, regular Joes can own machine guns in MN; they just need to be Curio and Relic qualified. Of course the C&R guns cost more because of this.

Most of the real hobbyists just go with the manufacturers license for $500/yr and then they can make anything they want full auto without paying the $200 tax and the C&R limitation doesn't apply. They also don't have to notify the BATF if they want to take it to a shoot out of state, like the normal owners have to. The only catch is that they have to deactivate or sell the stuff (to other SOTs) when they give up their licenses.

I've got enough friends with legal full auto stuff that I can shoot, so I don't need to go through all the hassle and expense. All my stuff is semi-auto, which is expensive enough to feed as it is.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:17 pm 
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We should have a forum for Machine guns, info etc. Interesting


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:32 pm 
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JFettig wrote:
I'm pretty sure that C&R is not even required for MG ownership, just a form 4 I believe it is. You can even create a trust or a corporation so that you don't have to give them your prints and all that stuff, I guess the papers even go through faster too.

Jon


Last I checked, the guns (but not the owner) had to be C&R. That is, the machine guns had to be on the C&R list, but the owner did not need to be a C&R FFL.

Dirk

P.S. If the purchaser IS a cruffler, can the machine gun be sent directly to his house?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:43 am 
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Please go check your laws before you start telling people gospel.


A class I FFL is all that is required to sell firearms. However to sell something that is listed as a NFA, then you are required to have that endorsement added to your license.

The only exception to these are those firearms that are specifically listed as a C&R. And even then, they are on a very specific list that is published by the BATFE. If it IS on the C&R list, with the C&R license, you can do your own tranferring. And these are readily available.

To purchase a NFA weapon, you need to determine what it is. AOW, SBR, machine gun etc.

If it IS a machine gun, you need to determine WHEN and IF it was registered. Not just manufactured.

The big signifigant date here is 1986. The GCA of 1986 is the biggy that shut the door on the Class 3 machine guns. Anything registered by that date will often be referred to as "trasnferrable." In otherwords, anyone can fill out a form 4 and transfer ownership of that firearm.

Anything AFTER that date, is generally concidered a "dealer" sample. Only available to Corporations, LEO and military. The key for the general public here is CORPORATIONS.

If you have a corporation that shows a legitimate need to own and use a machine gun, welcome to the club. Upon disolving the corporation, the weapon will have to be sold, tranferred or disposed of.

So if grampa has that killer BAR from WWII in the attic still and it was never registered, it is best kept a secret.

It it was registered, bring it out and play with it for gosh sakes.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:32 am 
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Thanks farmerj.

I think that there are several levels of confusion for most folks.

First is FFL (1-11), SOT (1-3), Class (1 or 2), Type, Forms, etc..............

The second level is between individual and corporation...........

The third is registered, documented, dealer samples, Pre-86 samples, etc..................

then there are all of the permeations and combinations required to get from A to B...................

This is all why if there is a question that you should secure an Official or Technical Ruling from the BATF, as well as optionally from DOJ and DOR, as even they are confused from time to time, and tend to change opinions and rulings randomly.

...


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:27 am 
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The easiest way for a MN resident to purchase machine guns, but not necessarily the least costly, is to...

1. get your C&R license for $30. Takes about 2-4 weeks in most cases to get;

2. go to this website (or similar) and search for C&R rated models

http://www.autoweapons.com/products/products.html


3. do paperwork for $200 tax, send $$ to seller, wait for gun to come to your home.

C&R rated guns are rare and costly. Figure about $5-7000 for an entry model like a Reising, and for the Tommy Gun fans, figure in the mid-teens to low 20,000 range.

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