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Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive • View topic - The "nanny" city in action.
 
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 The "nanny" city in action. 
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 Post subject: The "nanny" city in action.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:47 pm 
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Minneapolis votes Friday on restrictions for fake guns

An ordinance on ordnance would close a gap in a Minneapolis law allowing people to carry replica firearms in public.

By Steve Brandt, Star Tribune
Last update: October 04, 2007

When two men began chasing each other with handguns, police quickly surrounded the Knox Avenue house they'd entered on the north edge of Minneapolis.

It wasn't until police took both into custody on that late spring day that officers learned that the guns were replicas.

Police officials say they're encountering more cases in which replica firearms are used in crimes or pose split-second decisions for officers.

It's a source of concern for police, who have a particular worry about fake guns.

Police don't want to find themselves using lethal force against someone who's pointing a fake gun at them.

That's why the City Council on Friday is poised with a lopsided vote to restrict the carrying of nonlethal guns. That would follow more limited action by St. Paul earlier this year; both cities appear to be in the forefront of U.S. cities taking such votes.

Minneapolis police hauled a load of replica guns into a council committee last week in support of the proposal, sponsored by Council Member Don Samuels.

Hefting one, Samuels said: "I'm afraid to point it at anyone. This thing is entirely scary."

City officials plan to display some of the imitation ordnance for the public in a news conference preceding today's council meeting.

Police said they confiscated 294 such guns last year, with another 129 collected in the first half of this year. Many were BB guns, which already face some state restrictions. But others were replicas used in assaults, threats, burglaries, car thefts -- even kidnapping. The price of replicas ranges from under $20 to more than $200.

One episode happened just 13 hours after the Knox Avenue incident. Two men were arrested on Bloomington Avenue after shooting replica handguns from a vehicle in imitation of a drive-by shooting.

"You can imagine the kind of hysteria and fear that creates," said Deputy Police Chief Scott Gerlicher.

The ordinance change would fill a gap in Minneapolis. Regulation of firearms is a state matter, but there's little restriction on replicas or the airguns used by hobbyists such as paintball enthusiasts. It's a felony to carry or keep those or BB guns on school property, as happened at Irondale High School this week in New Brighton. They also can't be brandished in a threatening manner.

But replica and airguns can generally be carried in public. That's what today's proposal would address. Those devices couldn't be carried by a person or in a car except under certain conditions.

Assistant City Attorney Joel Fussy said the ordinance is broader than St. Paul's focus on airguns. Gerlicher said he'd like to see the restrictions enacted statewide.

Nationally, other municipalities have restricted possession of replica guns in recent years. Those cities include Beaverton, Ore., and Honolulu.

"We were pretty much at the forefront of this, nationally," said St. Paul City Attorney John Choi.

The only testimony on the Minneapolis proposal came from the Minnesota Airsoft Association, which represents players of paintball-style war games. It supports the restrictions.

Airsoft Association Safety Officer Erik Pakieser said the replicas are used by collectors who don't want to bother with firearm regulations --people such as military re-enactors, those involved in role-playing games or museums, and in law-enforcement training.

"The problem is the realism," Pakieser told council members last week. The replicas are real enough to be used in a crime, and their use forces police to decide whether a replica is real or not. "We want to prevent that," Pakieser said.

Police had to make such a decision in 2004. Courtney Williams and other friends passed a gun between them as they ran from police on another block of Knox Avenue.

Officer Scott Mars testified that he yelled repeatedly for Williams to stop. When he saw that Williams held a chrome handgun as he turned toward Mars, the officer fired, killing Williams.

Williams had a .45-caliber air-pellet gun, which state law already prohibited from being used in a threatening manner. A grand jury cleared Mars in the death.

The proposal drew no opposition at a public hearing, and the National Rifle Association did not respond to an inquiry on whether it has a position on the issue.

"It's the kind of ordinance where everybody has to ask themselves, 'Why didn't we do this before?'" Samuels said.

Steve Brandt • 612-673-4438

Steve Brandt • sbrandt@startribune.com

http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1465704.html


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 Post subject: Re: The "nanny" city in action.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:39 am 
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kimberman wrote:
Minneapolis votes Friday on restrictions for fake guns

Williams had a .45-caliber air-pellet gun,


DAYUM I want a .45 cal pellet gun. Squirrels would stand no chance. :twisted:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:56 am 
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I'm OK with this. Replica guns, (and BB guns, and Airsoft guns,) should be required to be handled with the same care as real firearms. Don't point them at anyone (and if you do, it's a bona fide threat of GBH), carry them in a case, unless you have a permit. Permits, of course, should give you a pass.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:33 am 
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chunkstyle wrote:
I'm OK with this. Replica guns, (and BB guns, and Airsoft guns,) should be required to be handled with the same care as real firearms. Don't point them at anyone (and if you do, it's a bona fide threat of GBH), carry them in a case, unless you have a permit. Permits, of course, should give you a pass.


I understand your view. They are doing this because lack of common sense and parenting in the city. There is also laws on the book that would cause people to treat them properly but no teaching of safe gun handling like I was shown.

Other cities don't have this problem ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:23 am 
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Gun safety and personal safety are something people usually learn on their own, without legislation. You should practice muzzle control, keep your finger off the trigger, treat guns as loaded, etc. Pretty soon someone will want these rules specifically codified into law as well.

If we can ban FAKE guns as too dangerous, it should be a slam dunk to ban the real thing.

It is already illegal to terrorize people, with fake guns or even fake clubs.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:55 am 
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Dick Unger wrote:
It is already illegal to terrorize people, with fake guns or even fake clubs.
Exactly. Existing assault statute covers this. This is one more example of why a full-time legislature is a bad idea.

What really bugs me is the mindset implied by the "closing a gap" terminology. "OMG, there's something that's we don't have a specific law against! Something 's got to be done!"


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:15 am 
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Will I still be able to point my index finger, with thumb in the air, yelling "BANG BANG!"?

probably not....


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:17 am 
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There are so many troubling statements in that article.

I am reminded of this from Thomas Jefferson, "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."*

I often wonder if that battle is lost. But, sometimes, every now and then, when one looks carefully, there are still glimpses of hope.






*Religious reference notwithstanding.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:19 am 
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You'll still be able to carry them on private property so I don't know what real effect the ordinance will have.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:52 am 
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Now that there's a city ordinance hanging over their heads, thugs will no longer commit robberies with replica guns. Thugs will no longer point them at police. Peace will reign throughout the land.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:14 am 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
Now that there's a city ordinance hanging over their heads, thugs will no longer commit robberies with replica guns. Thugs will no longer point them at police. Peace will reign throughout the land.


hmmmm that means I only live 80 miles from Shangrila. Property values should soar.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:39 am 
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Lenny7 wrote:
Will I still be able to point my index finger, with thumb in the air, yelling "BANG BANG!"?

Why would you do that, when you could arm yourself with a JPFO cookie?

http://www.goodyguns.com/
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:41 pm 
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Typical "It takes a village" mentality. As Dick Unger points out and Pat Cannon mentions WE ALREADY HAVE LAWS. This is why it is hard for me to hide my distain for these polititians. They do it at the local level, state level, federal level......Good God :!: We do need part time, citizen government. Not the egocentric crowd we have today. Of course with all their work to protect us they will need to vote themselves a raise as soon as they get into office. :shock: My sig-line says how I feel much more eloquently than I can.

And I wonder why the BG has to use a toy for his criminal activities when it is common knowledge that he can go to a FFL or Gun Show and get the .50 BMG that he really needs. (tongue firmly in cheek) :roll: ....Ooops...There goes another law. :evil:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:04 pm 
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I think it's really much simpler than that. With the ordnance in place people will not be able to play airsoft in parks or on vacant lots. There are fairly few places here that specifically cater to airsoft game and they charge money. If it is illegal to play outside, anyone wishing to play and not run afoul of the law has to pony up. Fees at games I've been to are around $30.

Now, who wants to bet that the MAA folks supporting the ban have an interest of some sort in a game facility?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:19 pm 
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It passed.


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