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 Mississippi River 
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 Post subject: Mississippi River
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 12:40 pm 
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A friend I know wanted to take a trip all the way down the river. Which got me thinking if I could carry on that trip. So my Question is
Where the river splits two states MN/WI for example and I have a permit for one state can I carry on the river if I never land in a state I don't have a permit for?
or to put it differently.
Who has jurisdiction on the river?

thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Mississippi River
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 1:10 pm 
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portsari wrote:
Who has jurisdiction on the river?

OMG! Why the hell didn't your instructor cover this in your class?

(Just kidding everyone! :twisted: )

I have no idea, I'd try to get approved to carry in each state if possible, because the side of the <s>road</s> river is not the place to educate a police officer.


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 Post subject: Re: Mississippi River
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 1:16 pm 
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SultanOfBrunei wrote:
OMG! Why the hell didn't your instructor cover this in your class?

Good one!

If I were going all the way down river I would want to carry. Strange birds, those river folk.

But I think it would be difficult in that stretch between IA and IL. IA does have permits, but they are seldom given to non-residents.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 1:29 pm 
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Brian Toder (www.toder.com) is a permit holder, a certified instructor, an attorney, and a leading expert in maritime law. (He's also expensive!)

If you find the answer, let us know!

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 2:06 pm 
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I can see it now, MCL (maritime carry law) soon to be part of MADFI teaching curriculum. :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 2:14 pm 
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** I am not a lawyer, and I do not work with lawyers. **
BUTTTTT, a few guys I work with had some insight on this. They mentioned "concurrent jurisdiction" and said that the river could be patrolled LEO of either state and you would be subject to the laws of the state of the LEO. So if you are boating on the St. Croix and a Minn DNR stops you, Minn laws apply.

I do not certify the accuracy of this information. Hopefully it will give you a good place to start.


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 3:22 pm 
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Just make sure to stay three miles from shore and you should be okay :wink:

I have always wanted to make that run myself. Thought it'd be a great father/son thing to do maybe before my father gets too old. I just need him to quit injuring his shoulders. He is no good to me in a canoe with no (working) shoulders.

Being a former IL resident, I think that part wouldn't be fun. An out of state canoe would definitely get "boarded".

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 3:59 pm 
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Captains of boats have considerable powers that ordinary folks do not. I would not be at all surprised if some of those powers related to firearms. Likely, since the river is a navigable watercourse where public riparian rights apply, I would look to Federal maritime law, not state permit law, for answers.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 5:09 pm 
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Well its not legal to have a firearm on the boat without carrying, correct?? If that was the case you just wouldnt carry it but have it close by just in case. (just a thought)

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 5:22 pm 
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TeamSpringFieldXD wrote:
Well its not legal to have a firearm on the boat without carrying, correct?

In most sane places I am sure that would be somewhat reasonable. But paddling through downtown Windy City on the Chicago River I can easily see LEO hassles irregardless of the legality.


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 5:31 pm 
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for what its worth i know when your on a boarder water like the st croix a fishing license from either state(MN or WI) works im buy no means saying its the same for your carry permit but it would be nice


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 10:05 am 
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Macx wrote:
Being a former IL resident, I think that part wouldn't be fun. An out of state canoe would definitely get "boarded".


This doesn't really apply to a canoe, but register your boat under the USCG and fly under your choice of countries' flags for what ever laws you enjoy.

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 10:25 am 
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http://dnr.state.il.us/admin/systems/boats.htm

I have heard of them boarding canoes to make sure you aren't a IL resident flying an outstate registration to evade paying your tax. They verify that you are from out of state, but only after "boarding" & then you have the weapons issue. I'm not saying it is impossible to get through IL unscathed just that it'd be dicey.

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 10:33 am 
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mnglocker wrote:
This doesn't really apply to a canoe, but register your boat under the USCG and fly under your choice of countries' flags for what ever laws you enjoy.

It's been a while, but last time I looked up this stuff the USCG would only register boats for owners who lived in states that didn't have boat registries (IOW, Vermont).
Alternatively, the USCG will document vessels of over five net tons, but no canoe and few river boats will qualify for that program.


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 Post subject: Re: Mississippi River
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:13 pm 
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portsari wrote:
A friend I know wanted to take a trip all the way down the river. Which got me thinking if I could carry on that trip. So my Question is
Where the river splits two states MN/WI for example and I have a permit for one state can I carry on the river if I never land in a state I don't have a permit for?
or to put it differently.
Who has jurisdiction on the river?

I was thinking about this, once, after a walk through the Minnehaha Falls offleash dog park. It's City of Minneapolis land, but further downstream is Fort Snelling State Park, the Minnesota Valley National Wildlife Refuge, etc. I'd wondered more deeply into the woods than before, and was wondering how close I'd come to areas where the laws respecting carry might be different.

I found a map: Acro 2006 OSPO Map 2

You'll need to do some zooming and some scrolling, but if you do, you'll see a stretch west of the airport marked as being owned by the Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board. Immediately south of that, you'll find an island marked as NPS Island 108-01.

Except that it's not an island. It's a sand-bar, separated from the shore only at times of unusually high water. And it's immediately contiguous to the south end of the dog park, such that most of the visitors to the park who head down to the river so their dogs can play in the water will have crossed over onto it.

And with respect to carry, it's National Park Service land. Which means that carry is legal on the north end of the beach, owned by the Mpls Park Board, and illegal on the south end of the beach, owned by the NPS. With nothing whatsoever to indicate to someone walking along the beach that they were changing legal jurisdictions.

I have no idea how many of the river islands are formally NPS land. I have no idea how many of those that are are actually administered as NPS land. But it's clear that at least some of the river islands are owned by the NPS, and it's at least possible that the NPS regulations apply to them.


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